From Rock Star to Judge: Crime, Poverty, and Justice in Seattle

[00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the latest edition of Seattle Nice, the only podcast that tells you what's really happening in Seattle politics. I'm David Hyde with Erica C. Barnett of Publicola. And Erica, before we get going, coincidentally, I was listening to the Judge John Hodgman podcast this morning. Have you ever heard this one? Of course. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. Maximofun.org. So people who don't know this, Hodgman plays this fake judge who resolves petty disputes. Like, is it ever acceptable?

[00:00:40] It's possible to cut a donut in half and that sort of thing. He'll have like couples or friends on and answer these kinds of questions. Sandeep Kaushik, political consultant, also with us, fan of John Hodgman's podcast. I have never listened to John Hodgman's podcast, but I'm going to go check it out now, David. And by the way, David, you sound a little under the weather here. I am really, I don't know if it's, I did a COVID test, but it was expired, but whatever I've got, it's definitely in my chest today. So I think it means I'm feeling better a little bit, but I sound horrible.

[00:01:09] Um, so as you both know, we recently talked with Seattle city attorney, Erica Evans about her new plan to bring back a version of community court called connection court. And today we're following up in a way with a real King County district court judge, Barty Martin, before he became a judge, he was a lawyer. And before that, back in the nineties, I don't want to say this is the part I'm most excited about, but back in the nineties, Martin played bass for the Seattle rock band candle box.

[00:01:37] Um, judge Barty Martin. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be on the podcast. And we have some very serious questions for you about our court system and how it's working and all that, but just, um, just to get this out of the way, you were living kind of the rock and roll dream playing in front of these huge crowds.

[00:01:57] And then you decided to go to law school. I would feel like if I was a judge or a lawyer, a lot of judges are lawyers, like wish they were rock stars, but you wanted to be a lawyer. So why make that change?

[00:02:09] You know, um, careful what you ask for. Cause it's actually touring is one of the most boring and boring things you can do. And, uh, you just kind of sit around for 23 hours of the day and then have fun for an hour. I mean, it's, it's more fun than that, but I, um, I don't know that that's why I quit. I, I think that I've always just wanted to sort of challenge, be challenged in some way.

[00:02:34] And so, um, I, but really the primary thing is I had a daughter, you know, and, and once, uh, Fiona arrived, I didn't want to tour anymore. And, um, you know, some people love touring. I liked it, but I can't say that after 10 years or so of it, I wasn't ready to do other stuff.

[00:02:54] And then, uh, you know, I've always wanted to, um, do something that I felt was serving, you know, um, people. And so that was kind of, uh, the reason that I went to law school and I figured I would figure out how I was going to do that along the way. And it took me a long time, I think, to figure out the path I wanted to take.

[00:03:15] So, I mean, I got it. I got away in and ask about it because Candlebox was like, I mean, a huge band, right? I mean, yet in your heyday, you guys were like, what I assume traveling the world and, um, playing huge gigs. And, um, did you like get rich off that? Or are you, are you, you know, I rich is pretty important questions.

[00:03:37] Yeah. I definitely got comfortable and it's, um, you know, it's been wonderful. You know, I can't complain, but it's not, not rich. Like never bought a Rolls Royce. Right. Right. You're not, don't have a plane or, uh, you know, a yacht or anything like that. So I can afford to live in Seattle. That's just leave it at that. So I'm very fortunate. Totally. All right. Should we jump in on community court? Jump.

[00:04:06] All right. Um, yeah. So, uh, as, uh, David mentioned, we talked to Erika Evans, city attorney here in Seattle, um, and, uh, about their new version of community court. So I just want to ask you to sort of lay out how community court works in the jurisdictions that you're working in. You know, what, uh, qualifies you for community court, what kind of services are offered. And if you can just kind of just describe it to us. And, um, I don't know how familiar you are with Seattle's community court, but we've covered it a lot. And, um,

[00:04:35] if you have any compare and contrast, that would also be great. Yeah. I mean, I'll do my best. I haven't, um, I didn't work in community court in Seattle Muni, um, just, just the, uh, King County district court, uh, community courts, but it's an, uh, alternative problem solving court.

[00:04:52] Um, it, uh, in the King County community courts are really geared towards low level offenders and, um, engaging them for a relatively short amount of time, but trying to hook them up with, uh, resources, uh, to address underlying problems that they, um, may have, uh, that brought them into the court system in the first place.

[00:05:15] Um, so as far as eligibility goes, um, if they cannot have, uh, participants cannot have any violent felonies within the last five years, any pending felony charges or, uh, sex offender history.

[00:05:32] So those are, that's the criteria, um, for excluding certain participants. Um, when it comes to the types of crimes that are typically seen, they're nonviolent and kind of low level offenses.

[00:05:46] So, uh, uh, domestic violence, um, crimes are not referable to community court. Uh, neither are DUI related. Most driving crimes are not, uh, being referred. So typically there are criminal trespass, theft cases, and, um, uh, those types of charges.

[00:06:08] Um, and then I can move on to, um, the types of resources that we try to hook people up with most frequently their mental health treatment or, um, substance use disorder treatment, housing resources. A lot of the people that we see in the court are unhoused. And so trying to get them stabilized, uh, get them stable housing, even food, orca cards,

[00:06:36] really we try to the, one of the first things that they do is go through an intake even before they've opted into the program to determine what their needs are. And then, um, the various, um, parties involved, um, try to come up with a plan to help them. And typically the engagement is, um, is about 16 weeks. Um, but then there's usually about a month of observation.

[00:07:05] Uh, for people to determine whether or not they want to actually part of opt in to the court. So, so, and, and judge Barty, you are a community, you preside over a community court judge in Shoreline, but also basically for the city of Shoreline, all of the other types of cases that you would, you might see there, correct? Yeah, that's right. So I handle, um, pretty much all of the Shoreline matters. And then when it comes to community court, it's, uh, the city of Shoreline and the city of Kenmore.

[00:07:34] It's sort of a combined community court. Shoreline has by far, uh, the more case, uh, more cases, um, per year than, than Kenmore does. But, um, I also preside over, um, kind of mainstream criminal matters, uh, all misdemeanors, gross and simple misdemeanors, um, protection orders, um, other civil matters,

[00:07:57] do some small claims and, uh, infraction stuff. But a lot of it, a lot of my time is taken up by criminal calendars. So I, I tend to be kind of a skeptic and I'm trying to turn over a new leaf and wanted to start with a super positive question for you, which is, do you have any examples of folks who have turned their lives around with community court, like either through your experience as a judge or, you know, you were a public defender and a, um, you know, uh, defense attorney for years and years.

[00:08:27] Yeah. Well, I, um, so not as, as a public defender and, uh, defense attorney, um, I certainly saw restorative justice turn lights, lives around. Um, I wasn't, very involved in community court because typically there's really one, they, they were, a lot of them were developed after, um, I stopped being a public defender. Um, and most of the,

[00:08:55] um, defense attorneys involved in community court, if not really the only attorneys are public defenders. Um, cause typically, um, people are, you know, are indigent that are involved in, in community court rather than having, being able to afford private counsel. There was a woman that came in three weeks ago, just for a visit and brought her, um, I think 12 month old baby who, when she entered community court, and this was about a year and

[00:09:25] a half ago, and I was not presiding over it at the time. She was, um, in a bad, bad state, um, uh, kind of really struggling with substance use issues. And so she was able to get hooked up with, um, treatment, um, resources. And, um, she's been, I think that she's been sober longer than the,

[00:09:48] the child's been around. So she was probably involved, uh, more than a year ago, but she was on cloud nine. She was so excited. So, um, and from what I heard that where she started compared to where I met her was in the just night and day, just really turned her life around and had maintained sobriety, had a child that she was excited about stable housing. Um, and I believe a job as well.

[00:10:17] So it's, there's, I think there's a lot of them. Certainly there's stories where, um, people weren't able to get the help they need, or they weren't ready to, um, make a change. You know, I think that it's, uh, you can encourage things, but, um, each individual has to be in a place where they can make, where they're ready to, um, get sober typically. I mean, that's the, in my experience, that's what I've seen. It's, uh, you can use a stick or a carrot, but really the person needs

[00:10:47] to be ready. I mean, so David asked for, um, an anecdote, and I'm wondering if you have statistics on the efficacy of these services, because I mean, one of, you know, I think Sandeep's criticisms and the more conservative criticisms of community court, um, and here in Seattle was that it let people just kind of dip in and out and not, um, accept services. But I know one criticism of restorative courts, um, in general is, you know, what tends to happen. People, you know, access the services to

[00:11:17] whatever extent they're required, but don't, you know, continue to offend again because they don't reach that point where they're ready to get sober. So, yeah. So I'm just wondering about the FFC, you know, uh, beyond anecdote, I mean, are people, you know, ending up getting warrants again? Um, that, that was a real problem with community court, um, here in Seattle. Um, you know,

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[00:12:29] I don't know if there's a typical outcome outcome for community court. Um, certainly there are, there are people that have left the stop participating in community court since I've been presiding for various reasons. You know, a lot of the cases are, um, the, it takes more effort

[00:12:54] to successfully complete the 16 weeks of community court than it would if they just pled guilty to a theft, say a theft in the third degree charge in main street and court. So, um, there are people that have dropped out because they maybe didn't want to engage in treatment. So one, there's not

[00:13:18] really statistics, um, that I can cite right now as far as efficacy. And my understanding is of what I've read at least about the Seattle municipal court, community court statistics is that they were, um, different sets of them and they weren't, they were interpreted. The statistics were maybe interpreted, um, as the people interpreting them wanted them to be, uh, you know, that they, that they

[00:13:48] weren't, um, uh, scientifically sort of rooted, rooted, rooted in science and statistics that I, I don't know enough about it to say for certain, but that was the impression I got that there was maybe an agenda pushing some of the statistics or at least the interpretation of them. I think you probably know

[00:14:12] about that more than I do. Yeah. I, I, I do want to get in the mechanics of how your community court and the suburban community courts work, because I think there are some key differences between how your court operates and how the old version of community court in Seattle operates. And I think I want to surface that, but before we do that, I do want to ask just to give people, our listeners, a sense of the landscape. You're overseeing a community court in Shoreline and Kenmore,

[00:14:40] but there are other community courts in suburban King County. What is the setup here? I know there's one in Auburn and, you know, but yeah, what's the kind of landscape of community court and how is it divided up jurisdictionally? And then, and then we'll get into the mechanics. Yeah. Well, no, that's a great question. Um, you know, Seattle has its own municipal court, so they're handling the case that Seattle municipal court would have jurisdiction over, um, a community,

[00:15:06] would have a community court for Seattle. Um, in short, there's in, with the King County district court, there was an Auburn community court that's no longer, um, uh, in place. And in fact, Auburn is no, no longer going to contract with King County district court for their court services. They're going to take them back. And, um, so they'll be on there. They've hired their own judges, own administrators.

[00:15:34] So that's, um, as of the first of the year, Auburn is not going to be, the Auburn court is not going to be, um, part of the King County district court system anymore. So at right now there is a community court in Bellevue in Redmond and in the shoreline Kenmore community courts. And, um, I think that's it. Gotcha. And if I can follow up, then let me ask about the mechanics of this, right? So the,

[00:16:04] as I understand how this works, somebody gets arrested for a misdemeanor offense, that's nonviolent and they qualify. Otherwise they don't have felonies and those sorts of things that you mentioned up top, they get diverted to community court with the idea that we're going to try to address their underlying issues and, and avoid sort of punitive sanction. You know, in fact, we're going to kind of figure out what they need and get them the services and help that's required.

[00:16:32] So how does that process work? Somebody comes before you, they've been diverted to your court. They've got some criminal offense. Let's say they were shoplifting and they're addicted. Um, what happens then? Do you, you know, how does the, the procedure actually work? And, and I'd love to know like what happens if they're not really fully engaging or, you know, how does this process play out? Yeah. So the first thing I either,

[00:17:00] typically it's either the public defender or the prosecutor will at an arraignment hearing, which is the one, typically it's the first appearance that somebody will make in court, um, if they're not arrested. Um, and it's where you enter a plea, either guilty or not guilty or not guilty by reason of insanity. Those are kind of, uh, the three options there. And so people will,

[00:17:26] um, it either the defender or public or the prosecutor will, uh, identify that they're, um, they think they're eligible. They meet the criteria and the crime meets the criteria and then ask, uh, in particular, the public defender will ask that person whether or not they want to, um, observe. Um, and so if they decide that they want to, um, have a look, then what,

[00:17:53] there'll be a pretrial hearing date scheduled, um, for, you know, 45 days out say, but then the following community courts every Tuesday in shoreline and Kenmore. So they'll schedule a, um, a hearing to come and observe community court, uh, for the following Tuesday say, and they'll just sit and, um, watch people as we're calling cases and talking to them. And, uh, and if it's after they've

[00:18:22] gone observed once or twice, then they can decide whether, um, they want to go through the intake process, which is essentially an interview where, um, there are, um, questioned about, uh, asked questions to determine what their needs are. Um, typically, so in the case of, um, if mental health or substance

[00:18:46] use disorder treatment is one of the identified needs, typically there'll be a little extra time. It's called an opt-in period or, uh, you know, um, uh, court watch is one of, one of the other titles for it, but they'll be given time to obtain a mental health or a substance use disorder evaluation. So they have a sense of what they're getting into before they actually fully enter

[00:19:12] the program. So, you know, if, um, if the, um, if they're recommended, some people are recommended inpatient treatment, so they're going to be inpatient for 28 days. If they don't want to do that, then it doesn't make sense for them to opt into the program and then be required to do that. So there really, um, there's an effort to make sure that their decisions are knowing and voluntary

[00:19:37] and intelligent, uh, before they enter into it. So once, um, a participant decides that they would like to join, to opt into the program, um, the prosecutor and public defender will work on, um, uh, uh, it's essentially a contract. It's called a stipulated order of continuance or SOC. It's a diversion contract. That's really between the city and the defense or the defendant. And,

[00:20:05] um, it'll give typically there are 16 weeks and they'll give, uh, um, hoops that they have to jump through like, um, you know, requirements might be mental health treatment. It might be, um, you know, substance use disorder treatment. Typically there is a, uh, a community service component, like eight to 10 hours of community service, um, as sort of the accountability portion. Uh, no jail

[00:20:32] is, is part of that. Um, and so if once the person opts in, they, they enter the SOC and then, um, they need to be compliant with the terms of the, of that agreement, uh, for the term of the agreement. And again, it's typically 16 weeks. Then once that time, once they've completed that, um, the case gets dismissed and they go through a graduation, uh, process, they get to graduate

[00:21:00] from it and it's over and everybody's happy. And so it's really, um, it can be a wonderful thing. Um, one other thing I want to point out too, is that there is a resource center at all three of the locations in Bellevue and Redmond and in Shoreline that's open to the public. Um, so you don't have to participate. You don't have to be charged with a crime and opting into community court to take advantage of the resource center. And, and they have, they have people there every week that will help,

[00:21:29] um, help people get hooked up with insurance, find, uh, health insurance that, um, they can afford and that works for them. Um, there's housing resources, um, which is really one of, one of the most heartbreaking things I face day in, day out or every day. It's something that I see. And, um,

[00:21:53] so it's nice to be able to afford, or for people to have some resource that's readily available to them to, um, try to find housing. And, um, so there's, you can get, or like I said, there's food, Orca cards, um, in community court. One of the other things, resources that, um, is offered is education and, uh, job training sort of resources, try at least trying to connect people with, with, um, jobs and,

[00:22:21] and training. Um, there, there's a lot, um, a lot of resources that, um, people can get connected with. And again, the beauty of it is that much of that, those resources are available to anybody that wants to just stop in to the resource center. Hi, Seattle, nice listeners. I'm deep here, asking you to consider getting involved with the block table, Seattle every month at the rabbit

[00:22:49] box at pipe place market, the block table convenes a happy hour conversation on timely topics of local interest with a wide range of newsmakers, civic leaders, and elected officials. If gathering in a casual setting to engage with smart people about topics of civic interest, sounds good to you. Please consider attending to find out more visit www the block table.com and be sure to sign up for the email list to get alerts about each month's event. Thanks. I hope to see you there.

[00:23:23] I have a quick clarifying question about this, the resource center and about these services you mentioned, you know, requiring people to go to 28 day treatment. And then I get, I assume if they leave before the 28 days, they would have flunked out of this court. Are any of these services, like if I, if I get into this court and the agreement is I'll go to treatment, how is that funded? Does the court actually ensure that people have access to this? Because, you know,

[00:23:51] a lot of homeless people don't have medical insurance. HR one is about to cut or, you know, is cutting Medicaid access for a lot of people. So I, I'm just, I'm just curious. I see a lot of opportunities to sort of both flunk out, um, by having a second offense, for example, or, you know, just not to be able to access these resources. So how does the court ensure, does it ensure that they actually get into these, um, all these programs that you're talking about?

[00:24:17] Yeah. Well, at first, um, picking up a new charge does not necessarily mean that someone would be, you know, uh, kicked out of the program. There's, um, I kind of touched on it earlier. There's this opt-in period, this period of observation period and, and the sort of knowing voluntary intelligent segment of that, you know, having time to understand what you're getting into before you

[00:24:44] enter to, into the agreement is really important. And one of the things that, that, um, goes on during that period typically is getting insurance, getting the funding, um, figuring that out. Um, you know, sometimes people have a job, you know, typically if people do not have a job that the getting the insurance to cover the treatment is, is relatively quick. Um, when people are working poor, that's really

[00:25:14] where, um, it becomes more complicated because if they have some income, then they may not be able to afford the insurance that is available to them. So that's, that's maybe a trickier, um, situation, but that's, there is this period that, um, those things we try to encourage people to iron those, to get, get funding in place so they can comply and they can be successful.

[00:25:43] Uh, one of the nice things about it is that it's not adversarial. I mean, it's adversarial, but it's not as adversarial as, uh, mainstream criminal court typically are. So, um, I've observed the courts in Bellevue, um, and, and in Redmond and, um, in both of those community courts, it's

[00:26:08] pretty incredible to see prosecutors being the cheerleader. You know, I would expect the public defenders to be cheerleaders for their clients, but watching, um, everybody kind of worked together. I, um, presided, um, as a pro tem, I, I presided over veterans court, um, just barely at all, but, uh, um, but the times that I did cover those hearings, it was incredible to see the teamwork,

[00:26:38] um, between prosecutors, um, the court staff, the therapeutic court staff and, um, the defense council too, the way that they work together is really impressive. And, and for me, it was interesting because I just, I didn't have to do anything. I just sit there and let them look, just run the show. Cause they were so, um, so invested in the process and, um, invested

[00:27:06] in seeing people succeed, which was really refreshing to see. For folks who graduate from community court, you're tracking them for 16 weeks. You said typically those, um, uh, contracts, you know, it's in a, it's an SOC, it's a contract essentially. Those are typically 16 week. Um, and why not longer do we, or do we have long-term sort of data on the effectiveness of this stuff? That's part of the question. Then also what about people who don't graduate?

[00:27:31] Yeah, that's, it's a great question. So, um, one, I don't have long-term data. Um, that's something that I can, um, I can try to follow up with you, um, get, get, um, data and, and, and fill in, but I don't have, I can't quote any numbers right now. So there are people that have

[00:27:54] opted out, um, because they don't, they would prefer, you know, for instance, a theft, a shoplifting charge where there was no alcohol or drugs involved in, in the, um, the incident. Um, typically if they, if a person pled guilty to that, there would not be a mental health component to it.

[00:28:21] There would not be a substance use disorder unless it was, there was some implication, um, that that was the, in the, say the police report, that that's what sort of with one of those issues was involved with the crime. So a person could, um, not have to go into treatment, plead guilty and not have to go into treatment because there's no nexus between the facts of the case and, and the sentence that would be imposed or requiring that in a sentence. So the difference

[00:28:50] in community court is there's this interview process where they're identifying needs. And if someone self-reports that there is a substance use issue at play, then that, that issue is going to get addressed where it wouldn't in mainstream court if there wasn't that nexus. Hopefully that answers So, so if somebody flunks out, let's say, you know, they voluntarily enter community court, they say, I've got this mental health or I've got this substance abuse issue. They sign the contract,

[00:29:19] they began participating, but let's say they, you know, they relapse, they start using again, they start stealing, you know, what, what happens when they don't meet the, um, you know, meet the terms of the, of the contract that they've, they've signed? Yeah. Well, you know, it's really, that happens, you know, that happens all the time in community

[00:29:45] court in mainstream criminal court where people don't comply, strictly comply with the terms. Typically, um, in community court, there will be, um, you know, encouragement to get, get, get back into compliance. There's a lot of support and help. There are people that are not, like I said

[00:30:11] before, there are people that are, um, not ready to get clean. You know, they're not in a, in a place and backing up. There are also community courts, not really designed to address really significant mental health issues for really significant substance use disorder issues. It's, it's supposed

[00:30:35] to be almost a springboard. You know, this person has a low level crime. They come into the system, it gives them an opportunity to get hooked up with resources, get their case dismissed, and hopefully they leave after a relatively short time in a better, much better place than they were before they left. But when, if somebody has really significant mental health issues, you know,

[00:31:02] substance use disorder issues and mental health issues don't get cured in 16 weeks, you know? So it's, there are, um, some people that would be better suited being in other therapeutic courts. Um, and so that's also one of the determinations that we try to make prior to having somebody actually, um, enter into the contract, you know, whether or not it's suitable because if they have bigger

[00:31:27] problems than, uh, the court is, uh, designed to address, it really doesn't make sense for them to engage in the program. Um, just to follow up on that, I think one bigger problem, as you, I think you mentioned, um, alluded to is that a lot of folks are homeless or unstably housed, may not get, court, you know, notices and just may have more trouble showing up at court than people who are stably housed. I mean, whether or not they have these other conditions. Um, and so, uh, you know,

[00:31:55] I am just, I'm just curious, you know, how often do you think this, um, this, that, that sort of situation leads to failure to appear warrants? Because that, I mean, that was a, that's a huge problem, I think in, in every court. Um, and, and I'm sure it is in, in the misdemeanor courts that you're overseeing as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the, you know, I feel like I've said the term community court at least a thousand times at this point, but I, uh, in community court,

[00:32:22] it's every Tuesday. And so it is, um, the failures to appear are less frequent than they probably would because it's a, a regular occurrence where, um, typically, um, on mainstream criminal calendars, there'll be 30 days, 45 days in between hearings while, while it's in a pretrial, um, status. And so there's a much greater, you know, bigger time period. If somebody is in custody,

[00:32:49] they get released from custody with a, with a hearing date, you know, they have to take that, that piece of paper with them. You know, first it has to get sent from the court to the jail. Then it has to be printed out. It has to be handed to the person. The person has to like make sure to carry it with them. And if they're unhoused, it's more likely that that piece of paper

[00:33:16] is going to get misplaced. Um, so it's, it's, that's something, that's something I see literally every day or I hear, you know, I'm, I'm confronted with that every day. Somebody that is, um, there to get a bench warrant quashed and, um, they're unhoused and there's obstacles, um, and barriers for them to, uh, comply with what the court requires. And so it's, uh, community court, I think reduces that a bit

[00:33:43] because everybody knows it's Tuesday, you know, that's the day that you show up. So there's a lot more engagement. One of the other things is that I think that's very nice. And I particularly, uh, in particular enjoy or like is, um, there's, um, there's sort of best practices, um, in with therapeutic courts. And one of those best practices, um, is for the judge to engage with each, um,

[00:34:12] individual, like for two to three minutes at a minimum each, each hearing. And I like that, you know, I, I enjoy talking to people. I, you know, I like, I, I, one of the things that is rewarding for me is to be treating people like people, treating them with respect, looking them

[00:34:36] to the eye, calling them by their name, uh, not trying to, um, intimidate them or, uh, you know, and so community court is, uh, a place where I can engage with people that are in the community and, and hopefully help, um, but certainly not browbeat them, you know? And sorry, just quick to clarify for our listeners, um, a bench warrant, you do have to pay a fee, um, to quash that. It's not, um, just a free thing that you can show up and do, correct?

[00:35:07] Uh, no, there's no, typically there's not a fee involved. Um, you have to show up and risk maybe getting remanded and, um, and put in jail. You know, if the bench warrant's not quashed, you, it gets served and you go to jail until you are able to post bail. So. I have this, uh, first world privileged anecdote that I brought up before Erica hates it when I bring it up. So I'm going to bring it up again in a different context, which is over the summer,

[00:35:33] over the summer, somebody dressed, uh, yeah, it is about pizza. Actually over the summer, somebody dressed in a zebra suit vandalized my neighborhood with latex paint. Um, they were clearly kind of high. I don't know the full story about this person, so I don't want to focus on them too much, but in my case, you know, I have a fairly low deductible. It wasn't super costly, but, um, I just got back the bills from the insurance company. And so my insurance company is paying like

[00:35:59] $7,000 for these two vehicles to get the latex paint off of. It's pretty expensive. Um, it also took a super long time to get fixed. I don't have car rental insurance with my insurance. So that was pretty inconvenient, um, for us and you know, I'm housed, this is a first world problem, but this is an area that has some of the highest property crime rates in the entire United States. Seattle has a huge problem with property crime. We always talk about violent crime. We never talk about property crime and you know, if it's a small business that's facing repeated property crime,

[00:36:28] they, they talked to me when I was a politics reporter about how this is time they don't have their compassionate people, but their costs are going up. And, um, here's the part where I'll bring up pizza. You know, we, we talk about ability though, by the way, David, not, not a community court of misdemeanor. Well, I mean, um, you know, um, low level vandalism, low level property crime, I think is a, it is a misdemeanor actually. Um, but when we, when we talk about, um, affordability, I think these sorts of low level crimes can actually cause all of our costs

[00:36:57] to go up, including shoplifting, including, especially for low income folks who don't have that elasticity in their incomes. You know, it's the privileged folks that don't care about their costs going up. It's, it's, it's low income folks that are really being affected. So when you think about your role as judge, you spent most of your career as a criminal defense attorney and a public defender and stuff like that. How does that factor into your thinking about the, the broader public health of our community? How effective is community court

[00:37:24] and what you're doing for actually lowering the property crime rate? Um, how does that factor into your thinking? Yeah, well, one it's, you know, felony versus misdemeanor theft or malicious mischief is based on, um, how much, uh, damage or the money at issue there. So $7,500 that's a felony. It would be a felony. Yeah. Um, $750 bumps it up to a felony. Let's not get too fixated on my

[00:37:53] anecdote. Broken windows are also going to be above that amount is my point. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Anecdote, uh, anecdote, anecdote retracted low level property crime that you're actually seeing in your court. Yeah. And so, and I, I have to say, you know, that in my court, what I see are thefts. I see if, if, when I see malicious mischief, like property destruction sort of crimes,

[00:38:17] typically it has a DV stamp on it. It was, um, you know, a domestic violence issue where somebody broke something, um, um, and so I don't see a lot of, um, people charged with general property crimes other than theft. And, and a lot of those, um, are really, you know, what I see and I read, you know,

[00:38:43] I have to read police reports nonstop to, to determine whether or not there's probable cause before, um, any conditions of release can be set. So, sorry. Uh, so I, I do that constantly. And so I'm pretty familiar with the various types of cases that go on and right now, Shoreline and, uh, Kenmore. Um, and there, a lot of what I'm seeing are really thefts that are driven by, um,

[00:39:14] really sort of poverty, you know, driven. Um, so I, I see people stealing shoes and sleeping bags. I see people, um, food, you know, it's, it's easier when I, um, I'll see, sometimes I'll see people that have stolen tools from Home Depot. Those are kind of,

[00:39:38] they're probably, you know, a lot of the people I see, um, are likely either stealing to eat or stealing to, uh, support a habit of some sort. Um, so I mean, it's a complicated thing. Um, I don't see a lot of small businesses being, um, targeted. It's usually bigger businesses and that's,

[00:40:07] it's, it's, um, I certainly, nothing I'm saying, uh, should be taken as condoning it. But I do think that when it comes to addressing the problems, looking at each case individually, each person individually and trying to understand what was driving, um, the criminal behavior or likely driving

[00:40:32] the, uh, and then approaching it from, um, a pragmatic place, really like what, what is best going to, what solutions best going to solve the problem. And sometimes I think it's accountability, you know, sometimes jail is what should be imposed. Sometimes treatment should be required in a judgment and sentence. Oftentimes these things are really driven by negotiations between, uh, prosecutors and

[00:41:00] defense attorneys too, though. So, and they're oftentimes in the best, especially defense attorneys are in the best position to know what's going on with their own clients. So my, my role is in some ways to call balls and strikes and in other ways to really try to make sure that my decisions are, um, well thought out and fair and just, you know? So, um, but approaching,

[00:41:30] doing things individually is really what I try to do. And, and Barty, you've surfaced some of this, but I want to kind of make it more explicit because I'm, I'm, I'm trying to think about the differences that I've seen in how the previous version of community court in Seattle was operating and what we heard from Erica Evans last week and sort of the, the new court that she's doing, which looks a little bit, I think operates a little bit more like the court that you're overseeing or some of the other suburban community courts than the,

[00:41:57] than the, um, you know, what I would call the kind of neo abolitionist version that we did in Seattle in 2019. Um, but one of the things you're telling us is that this isn't for everybody, right? People voluntarily enter into these courts after observing it and they sign this contract voluntarily. Uh, it's not a good fit for everybody. If they're, if they're too high acuity, it doesn't work. And I

[00:42:23] have been to King County drug court to a King County drug court graduation. And, you know, those are obviously dealing with folks who have much higher level felony level cases where they're stealing cars or stuff like that. And, um, uh, because of their underlying issues and then they have to go through this very rigorous, you know, King County drug court process. And, and it is amazing to see the people graduate. It's wild. And the prosecutor, everybody's cheering them on the judge. And, um,

[00:42:48] it's very cool. Um, when it, when it works for folks, um, you're talking obviously, but you're saying like, part of this is getting the mix of people enter this court right at the, you know, at the front end, because if you bring in people that have too high needs or whatever, they're never going to be able to make it through the, even the 16 week program. And it's just not going to work. So, so can, can you, can you speak to that? And do you, do you, do you see a difference there

[00:43:16] between sort of how Seattle has tried to do these therapeutic courts? Yeah. So, um, you know, again, I, I haven't, I didn't practice in Seattle muni, um, especially in the community courts. So I've, you know, read a little bit about it. Um, but it seemed to like, um, it seemed like more people were participating from the get go. Like there's definitely sort of, uh, more of a vetting process.

[00:43:43] Um, and, and there are, there's other referrals that can be made other than community court. So that's one of the things that, uh, is nice about being in the King County system is that one, there's a regional veterans court there's, and there's, um, you know, mental health court, um,

[00:44:04] which are other diversion therapeutic courts that can address the more, um, acute needs when people have, you know, their needs are greater. And so that's, you know, that's where they should be stirred to. If somebody, nobody's going to, um, somebody that's been addicted to opioids for

[00:44:32] years is not going to get clean in 16, is not going to address all the underlying issues in 16 weeks. It's just not going to happen. So it's, um, you know, but there are places that they can be referred to that are not community court where they can really get their needs met and that are just much better equipped to address those problems. Yeah, no, I think that this, this idea that there's some kind of front end triage that has to happen here is interesting and, and probably important to

[00:45:01] think about when you talk about most of these cases or a lot of these cases being related to poverty and, you know, and people stealing to eat. I mean, it does seem like somebody stealing to eat is going to steal to eat again and get picked up again and therefore not be terribly successful. in a court that requires, you know, like no more jail, um, you know, to, to the extent, you know, I mean, generally don't have a bunch of recidivism. Um, and I'm not hearing a lot of

[00:45:31] funding on the front end. Like you said, that maybe there's money for food or Orca cards, things like that, but it just, I mean, just, you know, personally, I mean, I, I've, you know, said, I mean, I don't think, I don't think people should go to jail for stealing food to feed themselves, but you're a judge, you, you've, you know, can't have that position and don't have that position. But what is the point of sort of putting people like that, you know, through community court,

[00:45:57] if they're not going to be meaningfully helped by the services that are available? I mean, community court can't be, you know, a service provider provider. Um, I don't expect any court to do that, but, um, but yeah, I mean, can you talk about what happens to those people? Yeah. Well, one of the things I didn't, I mentioned food, right. As a resource, but it's, um, helping people negotiate public benefits programs and get signed up for is one of the really the big sort of,

[00:46:25] um, services that it, that are offered at the community centers. So it's both for people engaged in community court as well as the community at large. So even, um, getting help, getting signed up for SNAP, for SNAP benefits is, um, a huge thing. Uh, and you know, people that are unhoused probably, you know, there's barriers to that, um, that the instability can create. So having a resource

[00:46:54] to help you get hooked up on some of those, um, public government, public benefits is I think very helpful. So it's certainly, it's not a cure all, um, it's, it's a helping hand kind of, it's a, you know, hopefully for a certain percentage of the population that, that enters into the court systems,

[00:47:18] system, we can, it can, the community court can offer assistance to help them be in a better place and get, and get the charge dismissed, um, a better place than they were when they entered it, but it's not going to cure, you know, it's going to, and it's meant to be a very short period as well. You know, again, it's 16 weeks, it's more of a, a springboard than it is a cure for all,

[00:47:47] everyone's issues. What's the typical sense? Let's say somebody doesn't go to community court and they're caught shoplifting. Um, they decide not to opt in, but they've got substance abuse issues and they're, they're caught shoplifting and they, and so they come before you in the criminal court capacity. What's the typical thing that happens to them there? Like what's the, you know, like I'd love to get the kind of different picture of. Yeah. Well, again, I, especially when it comes to

[00:48:12] sentencing, I look at everybody individually. So I will review the, um, the police report. I'll review, um, criminal history. I'll review what the recommendations are from the prosecutor and the defense attorney. Sometimes they're agreed. Sometimes they're not. I'll listen to argument about that. So one of the things that I typically require is a nexus between what the allegations are

[00:48:37] and what the sentence is, what in sentence I impose. So typically if there is not, if mental health issues are not implicated in the allegations or substance use disorder issues are not implicated, I would not include those as part of the judgment and sentence because I would not find that there was a nexus between the sentence I am, I'm imposing and the crime as alleged. So it's, um, and that's

[00:49:06] what I was kind of touching on earlier. There's this intake process, this question, these questions that are asked, uh, community court participants or potential participants that identify issues that would not be identified in mainstream court, um, to help them get, or to, so they get help there in mainstream court. That doesn't happen. Oftentimes though, there are either mental health or substance

[00:49:32] use disorder, um, in the allegations contain facts that sort of do create a nexus for that in the sentence. So on an individual case by case basis, if it looks like there is that nexus, then I would impose it. If there's not a nexus, I would likely not, you know, I'm not going to, I, I basically use my

[00:49:58] discretion and with each person individually, but I also try to maintain consistency because I think it's important for people to, um, have trust in the, in the court system and, um, not big surprises. I don't think are, um, a good thing. All right. Judge Barty Martin, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. That's it for another edition of Seattle Nice. She's Eric C.

[00:50:25] Barnett. He's Sandeep Kaushik. I'm David Hyde. And thanks everybody so much for joining us.