Sound Transit Picks Dow? And Challengers Take on Harrell and Davison

[00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the latest edition of Seattle Nice. I'm David Hyde with Erica C. Barnett of Publicola. Hi, Erica. Hello. And here with us, as always, as well, political consultant Sandeep Kaushik. Hi, Sandeep. Hey, David. So let's start with some exciting breaking news or breaking rumors, I guess, about Sound Transit and King County Executive Dow Constantine. Sandeep, this news doesn't seem like a huge shock to me, but you've got some.

[00:00:38] Yeah, well, right. I mean, Sound Transit announced yesterday, there was a Seattle Times story, that they have now selected their new CEO but did not name him or her. And they were entering into negotiations over the contract or the employment terms or what have you. But word on the street is that it is, in fact, Dow Constantine, right, which is sort of everybody had been hearing, you know, Dow was the only, it's King County Executive Dow Constantine.

[00:01:06] Dow was the only named finalist of the five finalists. The other four apparently were heads of, you know, transit agencies around the country. Is that right? Do we know that, Sandeep? I had heard that. Again, I will say, I will caveat everything I'm saying here by saying I have not talked to anybody directly on the Sound Transit board about this. So this is all third-hand info. But I'm hearing from multiple sources, sort of word on the street, that it is, in fact, Dow and he is going to be the new CEO of Sound Transit.

[00:01:36] And we should say we're recording Thursday, March 13th, around one o'clock in the afternoon. So it may be confirmed or denied, I guess. Hopefully I won't be horribly embarrassed and it will turn out to be complete bullshit. There's always that possibility does exist, but at least what I'm hearing right now, it seems fairly credible to me. Sandeep, I want to hear what you think about this pick.

[00:01:57] But, Erica, you had a guest post on Publicola titled, Sound Transit CEO Search Should Be About Leadership, Not Political Deals, basically saying the process is flawed. I don't think they used the word cronyism, but that's kind of what they're saying is going on here, something like that. Yeah, I mean, and, you know, this is not true of every editorial that Publicola runs, but I completely agree with this one.

[00:02:19] They basically, these two transit advocates, made the case that, you know, Dow Constantine, who appoints half of the Sound Transit board, which is making the hiring decision, you know, should not be in this position where he's a frontrunner for the job. And it does kind of smack of, you know, if not cronyism, not a real process. And, you know, I mean, they hired consultants to do this supposed national search.

[00:02:43] And sure enough, they, you know, appear on the verge of appointing the person who was the frontrunner all along, which, you know, raises questions, I mean, both about the process, which, again, I mean, as the person who appoints most of the board or half the board that's going to be hiring you, you know, I think that Constantine is just in a position that is not appropriate. And I don't know how to address it.

[00:03:05] Maybe hire somebody who is, you know, knowledgeable about transit, has led a transit agency, has expertise on transit, rather than a political elected official who, you know, is nearing retirement in his elected role. I just, you know, it's a little, because this process is completely opaque, they don't say who the names of the finalists are. You know, we're not going to know unless it gets leaked who else was up for this job. But, yeah, I mean, the whole process just stinks. Santeep, cronyism?

[00:03:35] Yes or no? Well, I will say this. There's been quite a bit of criticism, I think, and some eyebrows raised about this process. Erica, you know, published that op-ed from the transit, you know, activists or advocates that sort of called out, you know, is there a conflict of interest kind of situation here? But there's also the Seattle Times editorialized on this the other day, basically saying, pointing to the lack of transparency in this process. As Erica was just pointing out, we don't even know who the other finalists were.

[00:04:05] There were no public sessions where, you know, the public got to meet and hear from the candidates about what their visions were for, you know, the agency and what's going to happen. And at a time when, you know, Sound Transit is facing some pretty significant, I think, you know, headwinds about costs and timelines and, you know, alignments for the construction of light rail.

[00:04:28] And, you know, the Seattle Times was pretty negative about this, too, saying, like, the legislature ought to weigh in here and, you know, force agencies like Sound Transit to become more transparent about these sorts of things. So I think that's the context and the environment here. I think there's, you know, something to all of that.

[00:04:47] I will say in Dow's defense, he's been he he's been a longtime Sound Transit board member and, you know, board chair and a huge advocate of Sound Transit and light rail construction. You know, he was the one that I was involved in the 2016, you know, Sound Transit expansion campaign. And, you know, he was the one that sort of tasked us with go out, pull this campaign together and pass this big fifty four billion dollar expansion of light rail at the time.

[00:05:14] And so he knows the agency really, really well, you know, and and, you know, may well turn out to be a great CEO. I will say the one other thing I'll say, Erica, because I see you want to jump in is I did talk to a city elected official this morning about it who, you know, complained to me a bit about saying, hey, maybe Sound Transit needs a bit of a shakeup and some different eyes, you know, coming in and looking at how agency operations are going.

[00:05:43] And whether they're really, you know, delivering for the public. And this kind of pick is not not it. It seems like a status quo. Are they saying Dow is a shakeup? No, they're saying they're saying this is not that this is a status quo pick. Right. They were. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that has been said about this position, which pays six hundred and seventy five thousand dollars. Nice. The pay has has really, really increased dramatically in the last couple of years.

[00:06:10] I think Julie Tim, the previous CEO, I can't remember her exact salary, but it was, you know, somewhere on the order of half that. Goran Sparman, the current or Geron, rather, Sparman, the current interim CEO makes, you know, makes a hefty salary like way more than that.

[00:06:27] But I mean, what they what was said was, you know, we have to pay this competitive salary because people who would be competing for this position could otherwise go be engineers and make tons of money in the private sector as as transit engineers or in other kinds of engineering jobs. And I think that really flies out the window when you're talking about appointing a politician, you know, to the position. Now, granted, I guess Dow Constantine is a lawyer. He could go out and make lawyer money.

[00:06:54] But I mean, these justifications that we've been given for these astronomical salaries, and that is a huge amount of money in the public sector to lead a transit agency. It's more than the mayor makes by far the mayor of Seattle or any mayor in the region. It's more than the Seattle police chief makes. It's more than the King County sheriff makes. The justification just doesn't really exist if the if the choice is an elected official whose qualifications are, you know, he advocated for the agency and he sat on the board for a long time.

[00:07:23] So he knows the inner workings of the agency. And, you know, and I'm not saying because we can't in any way compare him to other people. I'm not saying he's not the most qualified. We just don't know. And, you know, and I do think it's a little bit of a side point. But at a time when elected officials are getting pretty goddamn self-righteous about the Trump administration and Doge and the lack of transparency, you know, these these top positions are becoming less and less transparent. I mean, same thing with the police chief of Seattle.

[00:07:51] Well, Bruce Harrell appointed a police chief, Sean Barnes, out of a list of appointees or a list of nominees whose names we do not know. And it's sailing through in an equally opaque process. And maybe Sean Barnes is the most qualified person for the job. But again, we just don't know because the mayor's office chose to make for the first time the mayor's office chose to make this or at least the first time. And since I've been here, it's a completely, you know, inside process and a completely private process.

[00:08:20] Sandeep, are people in your world advising for a less transparent process? Because they're sick of the criticism. They're sick of the process. Why make it transparent where you have to deal with like nasty things like the press and questions and all that? The public? The public. Well, I've definitely I have definitely heard some of that from from from various points that sometimes like the public aspects of these processes like drive, keep really good candidates from applying. Right.

[00:08:47] If you're going to apply for the high power job like this, you presumably have. And that's how we got Julie Tim, right? Right. Well, I'm just saying I'm just I'm just don't kill the messenger. I'm just telling you what I'm hearing from some people, you know, and that. You know, if you really want to get the best candidates, there has to be you have to, you know, give people a chance to sort of, you know, maintain some confidentiality so that, you know, they can apply. And then if they get farther along in the process, you can surface their name or whatever.

[00:09:17] But but otherwise, people just won't apply if you're just going to surface their name. And then I'm going to lose my job at whatever agency I'm at now or piss people off over there. So I have heard some of that stuff. But, you know, I it wasn't just the police chief search or this search. But just to add on to the point that Erica was making, the University of Washington just picked a new head. And that process, too, got a lot of criticism because it was completely non-transparent.

[00:09:47] So I think Erica's point that there's a trend going on here of declining transparency in these sorts of searches is seems right. And if we had a city council that cared, if we had a city council that was sort of aware of how things have gone in the past and cared about this, they might be the ones bringing it up because they're the ones that are supposed to represent the public, you know, by districts and citywide. And and yet, I mean, we're seeing absolutely not only no consternation, but just, you know, I think that they abbreviated the hearing that they held.

[00:10:16] There's going to be more, but they held a very, very short public hearing for Sean Barnes and, you know, basically just praised him. And so you're not going to get any calls for transparency from this current city council. What about the county council? We're talking about the county here. I was talking about the police chief. Yeah, yeah. But would you also make the same criticism of the county council? Absolutely. I mean, they should be calling for public transparency as well. And to the extent that they're not, that is also a problem. Or the Sound Transit Board, right? In this case, that's the appointing body here.

[00:10:45] I mean, just to Erica's point about the salary, I just, while Erica was talking about it, I just Googled the King County executive salary, which is apparently $259,426 a year. So, yeah, bumping it up into the $650,000, $675,000 range. Plus there'll be a huge payout when he leaves because that also has happened with all of the CEOs who have come through. I mean, they get these massive payouts for leaving. So, yeah, it's very expensive.

[00:11:12] It does seem like a big, big salary increase. I would just say that. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, man, you know, I don't know. It's not quite UW president. Nice retirement plan if you can get it. Not quite UW president or UW basketball or football coach money, but it's a lot. Yeah, and I find that, I mean, I got that comparison a lot when I posted about this on social media on Blue Sky. People, you know, were like, why don't you care about police? Why don't you care about, you know, these coaches that make so much money?

[00:11:40] Why don't you care about, you know, insert any other person that makes more money? You do. Those are ridiculous too. It's a ridiculous comparison. I don't think that we should be subsidizing, you know, coaches at public teams in that way or public schools in that way at all. I think, you know, like let the athletes make money and let the schools pay for that stuff themselves. I mean, yeah, it's a ridiculous, it's a ridiculous, but what about?

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[00:12:43] Download the Ikes app today or head on over to Ikes.com. That's Ikes.com. Yeah, I mean, I would just say it is apples to oranges when you're talking about a basketball coach of a major Division I program or football coach, even more of a major Division I program. Those are the revenue generating sports.

[00:13:08] Those are sports where, you know, college, university teams that are successful and win generate enormous amounts of revenue, right, that go towards funding all of the other non-revenue sports and other stuff at those universities. So I think there's a justification for the kind of, you know, big-time sports coaches make, you know, multiple million-dollar-a-year salaries. But they're also, if they're successful, they tend not to have long tenures.

[00:13:36] It's a very cutthroat, results-oriented profession. Yeah, having gone to a big sports college and my department was in a building where the elevator hadn't worked for 20 years, so you had to just climb up the creaky, smelly stairs. I am no fan of subsidizing and paying coaches that much. But I also think that, you know, we should scrutinize what we are spending our tax dollars on here in the Puget Sound region and the city of Seattle as well.

[00:14:04] I'm disagreeing with you that I just don't think it's an apt comparison to make, right? I mean, you know, there's a reason why, whether you like it or not, there's a reason why those coaches get paid that much. And it's justifiable, I think, on some level by the amount of revenue they generate by being successful. That's not a comparison to running an agency like Sound Transit or being the head of the U-Done. We're the only country in the world that makes sports a part of, essentially semi-professional sports a part of college. And it's weird and we probably shouldn't do it.

[00:14:34] But anyway, moving on, because Sandeep's a UVA basketball fan and would never agree with me about that. Well, we just lost our national championship coach at the beginning of this last season. It's terrible. It's not we. You don't have to identify with them. But I do. I do, Erica. I do. All right. Let's move on to something that we have previously sort of hinted at, I believe. And someone we spoke to, friend of the podcast, you could almost say, Katie Wilson, running for mayor.

[00:15:03] And I say friend because we had her on recently. So go check that out on our archives, the podcast archives, wherever you get your podcasts for Seattle Nice. You also go to publicola.com and see Erica's interview with Katie Wilson. And, Erica, I wanted to ask you about one of the things that sort of leaped out at me there. Katie Wilson saying to you, voters are eager for big action on affordable housing. And so far, she's basically saying Bruce Harrell's not giving her big action.

[00:15:29] So do you think that this is something that is going to be a centerpiece of Katie's campaign, that Bruce isn't doing enough to help people when it comes to issues like affordable housing? And she's going to be more active and think bigger than Bruce Harrell? Well, I think she's definitely going to think bigger. You know, the thing that she said motivated her to get into this race in the first place was Proposition 1A, which was a social housing funding measure that voters just passed in February. And Bruce Harrell was the face of the No campaign.

[00:15:59] His face was on all the mailers that people received arguing against Proposition 1A for a different proposal that would not have really funded social housing. So, you know, so there's that. I mean, she mentioned a bunch of things that the city could be doing if the mayor was enthusiastic about the will of the voters here to make it more possible to build social housing, giving bonuses and the comprehensive plan. You know, just lots of wonky little things that the mayor could be doing right now

[00:16:27] to ease the path for social housing. And, you know, she also talked about this proposal from Girmay Zahalai, who's running for King County Executive, to do a billion-dollar bond to build social housing. Now, I'm not sure the numbers on that entirely pencil out, but it's thinking big. And, you know, and she talked about, you know, maybe we can do that regionally. And, you know, we need to do something at the city level to actually fund the kind of affordable housing we need.

[00:16:55] And she also talked about the need for shelter at the other end of the spectrum, which isn't really housing. But the mayor did promise to build a shit ton of shelter when he came into office, 2,000 beds of emergency housing, which, you know, the bottom level and the cheapest level can mean shelter. And he has not done that, she said. So I think she is going to think big on housing and in a way that just has not been the priority for Bruce Harrell.

[00:17:22] So, Sandeep, are the mayor's backers worried about this? Do they think Katie Wilson presents a tough challenge for them? And by the way, we mentioned we had Katie Wilson on the podcast. We'd love to have Bruce Harrell on if he's listening. I doubt he is. But if anybody knows Bruce Harrell and he wants to come on this podcast, open invitation to Bruce. If you've ever met him, yeah. Look, Katie's a very bright, you know, and successful activist in Seattle.

[00:17:51] Well, you know, David, as you mentioned, we had her on to talk about a really interesting piece she wrote about sort of, she wouldn't admit to me that it was a mea culpa, but what I will call a kind of a little bit of a mea culpa, about how, you know, she thought the left had gotten it wrong in recent years on homelessness and things like the Compassion Seattle measure that the left came out against and that they needed to, you know, kind of think a little bit about some of the sort of public safety

[00:18:18] and other kinds of implications of some of the policies that the left has championed. Obviously, in retrospect, it looks like some of that kind of thinking on her part is probably, was in anticipation of the fact that she was planning to run for mayor. But, but so she's a smart, thoughtful, as Erica says, policy person and activist. How good she's going to be as a mayoral candidate? We'll see, right? I mean, answer your question, David, are people like quaking in their boots about this?

[00:18:48] I would say no, not right now. I think the general consensus is that the mayor is still in a pretty strong position going into his re-election. I mentioned this, I think I mentioned this last week when we were talking, but I've talked to some of the folks on the, that tend to fund left-wing campaigns in the city, which typically are the big progressive labor unions. They're all right now still in the mayor's camp supporting him.

[00:19:13] So it's not clear to me that there's a lot of big money out there to support a bid like Katie's for mayor. Um, so we're, you know, right now I would say, no, people are not freaked out about it, though. The mayor's going to have to take this seriously and he's got a real race on his hands. And, you know, Katie's coming out of the gate, making some real criticisms, right? About how he's conducted himself as mayor. I will say this, we talked about this last week too. There are all these rumors swirling that there are more negative stories coming out about the mayor.

[00:19:43] And potentially at least that could change his political situation or how strong he is going into his real life. We were just talking before the show. There's a, we're hearing there's a story dropping tomorrow, like, and I'm not gonna, you know, again, step on it. But, but, uh, and who knows what more is out there? So, so this is all as of today. I don't think people are freaking out, but you know, who knows what comes down the pike in upcoming days. I mean, I agree with all that.

[00:20:11] You know, I, I think that it is, um, it is somewhat surprising. I mean, mayors in Seattle sometimes get two terms. It's true. And I think that, um, Harold has, but it's been a while. And, and so it is somewhat surprising to me that there has not been more candidates already. I mean, we're sitting here in March candidates sometimes start lining up as early as January. Um, and this era of inevitability around, uh, mayor Harrell is somewhat surprising.

[00:20:38] I mean, it might have something to do with the fact that he has been in office for 16 of the last 18 years. But, um, I, you know, like Sandeep said, I mean, we'll see. There's, there's sort of a trickle of negative stories coming out, um, about him, about his administration. And so I don't know how much, I mean, even if that penetrates, um, you know, there has to be an alternative that people want to vote for. And I mean, among other things, I think the labor council would have to ditch Harrell.

[00:21:05] I mean, they gave him their, uh, labor Oscar last year, uh, for being the best elected official. So they're pretty far from that at this point. So, I mean, that was probably a pretty calculated move on their part, but, but still. So, yeah, I mean, I, it's, it's always disappointing to me when people kind of crowd into one race and don't run for others. I'll just say that, um, when we get a lot of good candidates, uh, for a race, um, that can only have one winner and not a lot of good candidates in others. And that always seems to happen in Seattle.

[00:21:36] Could there be other candidates of Katie Wilson's caliber that might get in later? Uh, is one of my questions, I guess. I don't know. I don't know if either of you heard anything about that. Um, but my other question is, I mean, she made that decision to come on Seattle Nice and write that piece for the stranger. With some, I don't know if you call it a mea culpa, because I, I don't know what that means, Sandeep. That's a complicated, but she, you know, she certainly. Seattle in particular.

[00:22:04] She certainly, she certainly had some self-criticism of the way that the left had handled kind of the politics of homelessness over the last few years. Which hasn't won her a lot of friends with some on the progressive left, as a matter of fact. Like she's, she's taken a little bit of criticism and heat for that. Including on this show from Erica, I would say, actually. So, so I, you know, but on the other hand, if she's trying to run for Seattle mayor, it seems like she's strategically positioning herself pretty well for the possibility that Harold may fall here at some point.

[00:22:32] So anyway, those are some of my questions. Can I just say, I mean, I think that if, you know, if, if Katie Wilson is saying, you know, hey, I was wrong about something. Um, and even if I disagree about aspects of, you know, of the policy she's talking about, I mean, as I've said before, you know, about other politicians, my favorite quality in an elected official politician, people running for office is a willingness to say I was wrong. And I changed my mind based on new information that I did not have at the time.

[00:23:01] And my least favorite quality is an absolute certainty that you are always right, no matter what, no matter what new evidence comes in that contradicts your point of view. So that reminds me of a national, that's actually a plus. That's actually a plus, um, in my, uh, in my book. Um, even if I don't a hundred percent, um, you know, come from the same, uh, angle as she does with my personal politics. I would just say, I agree with that.

[00:23:24] I mean, I, I, I, I thought that was a smart, interesting piece where she was saying the left needed to, and she herself was rethinking how she had, you know, treated issues around homelessness. I, that that's to her credit. You know, I, I don't hold that, you know, I, you know, I totally agree with Eric on this, like good politicians who are willing to acknowledge that they have, you know, evolved their positions after giving it some thought or, or, or changed circumstances.

[00:23:51] Or, you know, new information that's to their credit. Right. I will say this, like Katie has taken a bunch of, you know, positions. First of all, David, do your thing that the fact that she's getting some heat on, you know, social media and Twitter for, you know, being some kind of closet conservative. I mean, it's just silly and dumb. Right. I mean, please.

[00:24:13] But I, I think the bigger problem for her is that, you know, she took a bunch of positions in recent years that aren't super popular in Seattle anymore. Right. Around defunding the police and abolition. And, you know, she was aligned with a lot of that kind of stuff that could come back, even though her position may have evolved now. Look at what happened to Kamala Harris in this last race. Like Trumpies didn't run against moderate sounding 2024 Kamala.

[00:24:40] Kamala, they ran against 2019 Kamala and, you know, free taxpayer funded sex change operations for migrants. And, you know, that's what they ran against. Right. And so, so that, so she has vulnerabilities in that there's stuff that you could run against in Katie's past. Yeah. I, I'm not sure that I would describe Katie Wilson as an abolitionist activist the way that you do, Sandeep. She's worked on labor issues.

[00:25:04] She's, she's primarily worked on, you know, recently on getting minimum wage increases in cities all around Seattle. And including in Seattle back in, when we became the first city to have $15 minimum wage. And, you know, and some of her other activism on progressive revenue and also as head of the Transit Writers Union. I do not think, I mean, granted, I mean, she definitely has pretty moderate positions on police. She says we need to hire more of them.

[00:25:30] And she says we need some kind of security or other type of, you know, sort of ambassador type people on buses. But yeah, I wouldn't characterize her as like, you know, a wild eyed abolitionist. I would not. And I, it's a fair point. I, the issues she's worked on have tended to be economic issues. That's totally true. That said, a few years ago, she was pretty, you know, simpatico or, or aligned with, with, with that kind of, kind of more, you know.

[00:25:57] She wrote a piece for, for, I'm looking at it right here. Opinion piece, what defunding Seattle police could look like. So cynical people like Sandeep could pull that out. You're right. I mean, look, and again, like maybe she's involved in this and she's more moderate on public safety issues now. She clearly has changed some of her views. Yeah, she can, she can make that, that case. But I'm just saying from a campaign perspective, you know, that, that shit lives forever. Right. Like Erica, you, uh, moving on, interviewed a candidate who's challenging our Republican.

[00:26:27] Republican city attorney, Ann Davison. Erica Evans, I think that whenever we talked about this, we all agreed at least on the obvious, which is that Ann Davison is possibly beatable this year because she's a Republican in part. You've got some other criticism of her. But Erica Evans told you that she's running for city attorney because she has the values and experience to fight Donald Trump. So what was the case that she made to you about why she should be the next Seattle city attorney?

[00:26:54] Well, I mean, you know, we, we didn't get super deep into a lot of the specific issues. Um, but I think overall, um, I would put her as, you know, aligned against, uh, the Republican agenda, you know, both at the federal level, which obviously the city is going to be fighting on for the next, uh, four years, if, if not longer. Um, she's a former, um, U S attorney, assistant attorney for, um, the DOJ.

[00:27:19] Uh, she resigned amid, uh, you know, instead of basically being bounced, um, in the Elon Musk purges. Um, so we talked about that a little bit and, you know, she's a civil rights attorney. She says she would lead with a restorative justice approach, which is basically, you know, trying to, uh, address the misdemeanor crimes that the city attorney's office deals with, you know, in some cases by using alternatives other than jail, which I know Sandy probably perks his ears up at restorative justice.

[00:27:46] But, you know, it's, it's working between victim and perpetrator, um, to, to sort of reach better outcomes than just throwing people in jail. So, you know, she's running, I mean, and this is one of those races where, like I was just talking about, I mean, there's quite a few candidates now. There's three candidates that I know of running, uh, against, uh, Republican and Davison from the left. And, um, you know, I don't know that any of them I would want to throw into the mayor's race necessarily, but we've already got three candidates here.

[00:28:14] I mean, Sandy, do you think there's a chance that Davison could get primaried? Uh, not, not really. No, I mean, you know, you never know. Right. But no, I don't think so. I mean, I haven't seen any polling, so this is just my gut. But, but, uh, between her name identification and I think the fact is that she can make an argument, one that I significantly subscribe to, that she's done a pretty good job as city attorney.

[00:28:44] And helped, uh, you know, make some progress on, on issues related to, to crime and street disorder and stuff. And things are better now than they were when, when, you know, she first got elected in terms of all of that, that, uh, I would be surprised if she were to, to, to, I would be very surprised if she were to get knocked out in the primary. That said, you know, it happened the last time we had a city attorney's race, the incumbent city attorney, Pete Holmes, got knocked out in the primary. And I was pretty surprised when that happened too. I did not, I was not expecting that.

[00:29:14] And Erica, to your point, she does have the scarlet are sort of on her forehead. She put it on her forehead voluntarily. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and at this time of, you know, Trump being reelected and the Trump administration on their kind of, you know, national destruction tour of like, you know, part of the federal government and attacking blue cities and all of that kind of stuff.

[00:29:39] That could become a, I think it's already a big problem for her and it could become even more of a problem as we get closer to the primary in August. So I wouldn't rule it out though. Right now I would expect that. And it has enough of a base of support that she would be coming through her primaries, whether she can win a general election or not in these, in this environment, that's going to be more of the issue. It seems to me. I mean, I think that, you know, the scarlet are, she is not doing herself any favors.

[00:30:06] And I think that this is probably coming from a place of her actual convictions and beliefs by not roundly denouncing the Trump administration in the way that democratic city officials have, you know, across the country. I mean, she has, her, her statements have been pretty tepid. I mean, she has said, you know, I'm against Trump, but like we talked about recently, I mean, her complaint about the immigration crackdowns is that it's violating local control.

[00:30:35] Are we going to go back and forth on this one again? You could tune in last week to hear that debate. Yeah. Well, I mean. Local control to prevent authoritarianism, I think was the full quote. But anyway. Well, it definitely was not. That's exactly the word that she used. I mean, there's anyway, there's a great op-ed about this in The Urbanist. I'm not the only one, David, you're acting like I'm taking things wildly out of context. Wait, wait, you and The Urbanist agree about something? Are you kidding me? But there is, there is an op-ed in The Urbanist specifically about this after we talked about it.

[00:31:05] And so, you know, I don't think, I don't think that Ann Davison is a great champion for, for immigrants and reproductive freedom and all the things that Democrats tend to be champions for. If she is, I haven't heard it. So she's championing it silently. I completely agree with that. If she is, we haven't heard it. And I completely agree with you. And I also agree with Sandeep. If we don't hear it, if we don't hear more of it, I think she's, I think she, I think you guys are totally right. She's totally vulnerable. There you go.

[00:31:31] I just, I just think that the, the, the grace that you guys are giving Ann Davison to suddenly be completely different than she has been for the last four years and for the first part of the Trump administration is incredible. I don't know what podcast you're, I don't know what podcast you're listening to, Erica, but anyway. Yeah, I don't think she was. I'm listening to you right now. I just said, I agreed with you a hundred percent that she would have to do a lot more. She really needs to, but you know, she could come out and just say something tomorrow. That's completely different than everything she's ever said. She could say, I'm a Democrat.

[00:31:59] My point is just simply politically. I'm, I, you know, whether it will work or not, I don't know, but we'll see. I mean, I think she's got, like you say, it's sort of the same vulnerabilities as Sandeep is describing about Katie Wilson. It's kind of hard to run from your past. But she's not even trying. And Katie Wilson is saying, I found new, I got new information and I changed my mind. That is not what Ann Davison is doing. It's, I mean, it's completely different. She's, she's being the same way she has been the whole time.

[00:32:23] She is a Republican and, you know, and I think like to, to say that it's just the scarlet R and she has nothing to do with the fact that, that, that she has that scarlet R and could maybe change everything tomorrow is just, I don't know. I mean, I know you're not naive, so I just don't, I don't get it.

[00:32:39] Like, so Sandeep brought up, brought up the scarlet R and I was wondering if you were going to get into some of your criticisms of her where you're basically calling her a Republican for cracking down on drug use and sex work and all of that stuff. And I mean, I think it's an open question or it's not even a question whether or not that's, it's not clear to me that that all of that stuff necessarily makes her an R. But she is a Republican. She said that. Yeah, but she actually is a Republican.

[00:33:07] And so then the question is, how does she reflect, reflect the city's mostly Democratic Party values? I mean, I think that's a great question. It's a question seems like she's got to answer. That's right. And, and look, she's made a couple of statements now about her opposition of the Trump administration. Contrary to Erica, I don't think she was ever a Trump Republican. Like she, again. She joined while Trump was president. Yeah, right. Well, but not because of Trump. She joined because she was like completely fucked off about how crazy the left in Seattle was becoming.

[00:33:37] And she had these bad experiences at the Democratic LDs where, you know, which are populated by people who are like pretty much farther to the left of Bernie Sanders for the most part. Well, then I would say that's not, that's a pretty rash decision if you're mad that somebody was a percentage or whatever. I'm not saying it was, I'm not saying it was a smart political play on her part. I'm not trying to try to make that argument, but it wasn't about Trump. She's never, she caucused for Hillary Clinton in 2016.

[00:34:02] There's, you know, there's documented evidence of that, you know, and I think her argument is that she's brought like policy around, you know, the legal, you know, criminal system and the city attorney's office back towards the center. Not to the right, but, but taking it back from like the, you know, kind of pseudo crazy town it got to and bringing it back towards the center. We will see.

[00:34:27] I do think it is, she needs, David, to your point, I think she needs to do, given that she does have the scarlet art, I think she needs to do a lot more of this standing up to Trump and calling out Trump if she's going to be successful with progressive Seattle voters in November. We'll see whether she does that or not. I will also say this about Erica, Erica Evans, the, you know, reading her interview with you, Erica, I was kind of surprised how far left she went on some stuff.

[00:34:57] Like, I definitely thought maybe she was going to come out of the gate kind of being a more kind of, kind of establishment Democrat kind of, kind of can, you know, in the sweet spot kind of candidate. But she came out kind of swinging in a pretty lefty sounding, sounding ways on things like it was a disaster to abolish community court. Right. We've argued about this.

[00:35:21] When I read that, I wanted to ask her, well, was it a disaster that when 80 percent of the people who got assigned to community court never showed up for their hearings and there was no consequences? Hey, Sandeep, was it successful when Ann Davison got the soda and soap laws enacted and then has not used them? I mean, it's not her power to use them. It's over on the executive side at SPD and it's soon yet, right? No, it's her authority to seek them.

[00:35:47] I mean, it's just not, you're not describing the apparatus by which that happens correctly. I mean, it took them a while to get going on the public drug use law too, which passed in 2023. And for, as you know, for a long time, they weren't really, they did a one splashy thing on the first day and then they weren't kind of using it. It's ramped up some since then, right? We'll see what happens with soda and soap stuff.

[00:36:11] But, you know, and Evans came out strongly against the, what's the term for it? It's not prolific offenders. What do they call it? High utilizers. The high utilizer initiative. Thank you. Which I think they can make a strong argument, produce some really positive results, focusing on that small group of people that are repeatedly being encountered and getting arrested within the criminal justice system.

[00:36:34] And trying to kind of take that cohort of people out and to treat them differently, right? So we'll see. Obviously, we're going to have a debate about public safety in the city of Seattle and what direction we want to go in this campaign. And it's going to be complicated because one of the candidates in R and we'll see what happens. I don't know. Speaking of public safety, Erica, let's talk about Tanya Wu, who was planning to run and now she's not.

[00:37:03] I was thinking, you know, she doesn't want to get compared to good space guy. I mean, that's at some point you want to you want to stop running. But but too late. What can you tell us? It's happening. The Tanya Wu, who lost two elections and was briefly on the city council because she got appointed right after losing to a citywide position and then went on to lose again. She put her name in the running for democracy vouchers, which a lot of people noticed and were posting on social media.

[00:37:29] And then she briefly was listed as a candidate on the Ethics and Elections Commission's website. I mean, briefly, like, you know, maybe less than 12 hours. It was her name was only up there for a short period. And then apparently decided to take it down after filing. So I don't know what's going on with her. I don't know if she's, you know, still contemplating a run. She was holding press conferences that were kind of strange in the last couple months to complain about the navigation center in Little Saigon.

[00:37:59] And then to talk about a story that I wrote that we won't get back into. But anyway, I mean, it was pretty clear she wanted to run whether she still wants to. Who knows? But people were definitely comparing her to Good Space Guy because she is kind of approaching perennial candidate status at this point. I think three makes you perennial. She had a different program, though, Sandi, than Good Space Guy, I'm pretty sure. But what do you think?

[00:38:23] She didn't want to she didn't want to pay people a dollar an hour to clean the streets or whatever his his agenda was. I'm not sure she's I don't know what her position on colonizing Mars is. Yeah, we should ask her. Look, I haven't heard from her. I don't know. I don't know that anybody I know has heard from her. So I have no idea what's going on. Is she running? Not running? I just don't know. But I will say, you know, when those first filings happen, my phone this last weekend on Saturday started blowing up.

[00:38:52] People texting and calling. What's going on? And Tanya Wu, I checked in with her, her political consultant in her last race. And I was like, are you working with Tanya Wu on a reelect? And he told me, no, I'm not involved. That's what's going on. And so I mean, let's not say reelect. She has never been elected. I'm sorry. In this new election campaign, whatever I've got. I mischaracterized that. Fair enough. But but so I really don't know what's up with that. And it sounds like maybe she's not running now or withdrew.

[00:39:20] So I will say this, like, you know, her base of support was kind of, you know, she had two big bases of support in her previous campaigns. One was she's and I think this still exists. She has a strong base of support in the Chinatown ID district. Right. In the Asian community there. She is a known quantity, liked and has strong, strong support. I still think that exists. But her other big base of support was the business community.

[00:39:50] And I will tell you from folks in the business community I heard from starting on Saturday, that support does not exist. And I did not hear a single person in the business community tell me that they were looking forward to supporting Tanya Wu in the, you know, if she was running again. So so I think it would be if she is running, I think it's going to be pretty challenging. OK, well, that's it for another edition of Seattle Nice.

[00:40:15] Next week, we're going to be debating whether or not a public space that's been used by the community for nearly 100 years. It's affordable. That's that's nice. It might not be the prettiest space to just be torn down to make way for something new. The way the Building Industry Association of Washington and big real estate think it ought to be. And of course, Sandeep and Erica think it ought to be. And of course, I'll try to defend that space. She's Erica C. Like a Robert Moses Barnett, right? She's Erica C. Barnett.

[00:40:44] He's Sandeep Kashuk. I'm David Hyde. Our editor is Quinn Waller. And who's our spiritual advisor? Sandeep's my spiritual advisor. I think Josh Vite, maybe. We should make Josh Vite. All right, everybody. Thanks so much for listening. Yeah?