Street prostitution, crime and drugs on Aurora Ave are among the topics for this special live edition of Seattle Nice. This episode was taped Thursday May 2nd at the Haller Lake Community Club.
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[00:00:00] .
[00:00:01] Hello and welcome to the latest edition of Seattle Nice.
[00:00:13] I'm David Hyde here as always with Erica C. Barnett of Publicola.
[00:00:17] Hi, Erica.
[00:00:18] Hi, David.
[00:00:19] And political consultant Sandeep Kaushik.
[00:00:21] Hi, Sandeep.
[00:00:22] Hello, David.
[00:00:23] And we're also joined by the Haller Lake Community Club.
[00:00:26] Nice.
[00:00:29] How could they resist where Mexico's 110th most popular political podcast?
[00:00:34] Yay!
[00:00:35] Alright.
[00:00:36] This is our new thing for 2024 Seattle Nice Live.
[00:00:39] If you want to book Seattle Nice for your next neighborhood association gathering or
[00:00:43] we also talked about maybe doing bar mitzvahs, weddings, corporate events were available.
[00:00:49] For folks who don't know the Haller Lake Community Association is a few blocks,
[00:00:53] how many blocks off of Aurora Ave?
[00:00:55] Right nearby, I'd say three blocks off Aurora Ave.
[00:01:00] And that's the topic for today's show.
[00:01:01] We'll be talking about Aurora Avenue.
[00:01:03] We got a number of questions from community members leading into this event about prostitution
[00:01:08] on Aurora Ave, including this one from Kipi who says there are almost naked women
[00:01:14] walking on Aurora at all hours.
[00:01:16] How can we change this?
[00:01:18] Erica Barnett, let's start with you.
[00:01:19] You recently reported that council member Cathy Moore has a plan for change.
[00:01:23] She wants to bring the old prostitution loitering law back.
[00:01:27] The city repealed that law back in 2020.
[00:01:31] Prostitution is still illegal, but you report that the city's only made 25 prostitution
[00:01:35] arrests since 2019.
[00:01:37] So just to kick things off, kind of set the stage.
[00:01:40] Why did the council and the mayor decide to repeal that loitering law in the first
[00:01:44] place?
[00:01:45] Sure.
[00:01:46] Yeah, the loitering law along with a drug loitering law was repealed as a result
[00:01:51] of a work group that started in 2015.
[00:01:54] And basically they said criminalizing prostitution loitering specifically is problematic because
[00:02:01] it criminalizes people for just being in a certain place and being quote unquote
[00:02:05] known prostitutes.
[00:02:07] And so that was found to be racially discriminatory.
[00:02:12] They found a lot of, you know, just a lot of sort of racially discriminatory
[00:02:16] problems with enforcing both of these loitering laws.
[00:02:19] As you said, prostitution is still illegal, but there are there have not been many arrests
[00:02:23] on that particular law.
[00:02:25] Instead the city back in Pete Holmes this time decided to go after Johns.
[00:02:30] And so instead of arresting women, they target people who are buying sex.
[00:02:35] And I would say even more recently, they've done a lot less of that.
[00:02:39] And so Cathy Moore has talked about bringing back the loitering law and we can talk
[00:02:44] how, you know, how efficacious that's going to be and whether the police are really going
[00:02:48] to be able to use that law to enforce anti prostitution laws in the city.
[00:02:54] But but that's what she says she wanted.
[00:02:56] And Meritza Rivera, another North Seattle city council member, who says she supports
[00:02:59] that.
[00:03:00] Political insider, Sandeep Kashyak, what are you hearing from other folks in the
[00:03:04] city about this loitering law?
[00:03:06] Do you think there's support for what Cathy Moore is proposing to bring it back?
[00:03:10] I don't know yet, to be honest with you.
[00:03:12] This is this is a new idea that Cathy has floated just a few days ago.
[00:03:17] So I really don't know whether it's going to get traction or not at this point.
[00:03:21] I think it's too early to tell.
[00:03:23] I do know, though, that that I think Cathy's trying to be responsive to a litany
[00:03:29] of complaints she's been getting from her constituents about the kind of what's
[00:03:33] going on on Aurora Avenue in terms of street level prostitution.
[00:03:38] As your your initial audience member had said, there's a kind of obvious sort of
[00:03:46] prostitution scene out on the streets a few blocks away from here.
[00:03:50] And I will say this, like every time I drive up Aurora, it actually seems a
[00:03:53] little better recently than it was a few months ago when a few months ago
[00:03:58] they kind of shut down some of the hotels that had been acting as sort of
[00:04:02] the places where the you know, prostitutes would take johns for their
[00:04:05] assignations and stuff.
[00:04:06] Every time I drive up here, it seems like there's been there's been a little less
[00:04:12] visible sort of prostitution activity going on.
[00:04:15] So maybe that's helped someone.
[00:04:16] But it's still really sad, man.
[00:04:18] I mean, you know, the level of kind of degradation and exploitation
[00:04:22] that is clearly going on, you know, is is hard to stomach a little bit.
[00:04:28] And and I will say something that maybe is a little bit controversial here,
[00:04:31] but maybe seven, eight years ago now, there used to be a lot of prostitution
[00:04:37] and sexual activity escort stuff happened online through there used to be
[00:04:42] this national website called Backpages.com and the federal government
[00:04:46] sort of went in guns blazing to shut it down.
[00:04:49] I personally think that was a mistake, that that the that sex work
[00:04:54] was less exploitative and there was less trafficking, less violence
[00:04:59] directed at women back then.
[00:05:01] So anyway, I'll stop there.
[00:05:03] But good. OK, that's a good idea.
[00:05:06] You know, I could go on.
[00:05:07] That's OK, Eric.
[00:05:09] If you could respond to Sandeep in a minute, also about Backpage, I guess.
[00:05:13] But same question to you.
[00:05:14] I mean, is there support, you think, in the city for bringing this loitering
[00:05:18] law back? Yeah, I mean, like Sandeep, I have not pulled the council.
[00:05:22] I think that we are in an era when a lot of these sort of more
[00:05:26] punitive laws are coming back.
[00:05:27] The the new drug
[00:05:29] criminalization law is in effect.
[00:05:32] The city attorney's office has sort of started prosecuting
[00:05:35] people who bisects more.
[00:05:37] So that law is more in effect.
[00:05:39] So I can see it happening.
[00:05:41] I think there is a lot of maybe not misinformation,
[00:05:45] but you know, not great information about how many of the people
[00:05:48] that you see on Aurora are being trafficked and are, you know,
[00:05:52] as you said, this degradation and, you know, lack of sort of free will
[00:05:56] and all that stuff.
[00:05:57] And how many, you know, are in sex work for other reasons?
[00:06:00] I'm not saying that, you know, it wouldn't be nice if we lived
[00:06:03] in a world in which sex work was not something that, you know,
[00:06:06] people sort of feel that they have to choose.
[00:06:09] But it is it is a reality.
[00:06:10] I've lived in the city for more than 20 years.
[00:06:13] I'm assuming a lot of people in the audience have been here for longer.
[00:06:16] And there has always been prostitution on Aurora.
[00:06:18] There's always been prostitution in America.
[00:06:21] And so I think we need to sort of disaggregate, you know,
[00:06:24] why are people out there?
[00:06:26] And instead of sort of saying, oh, they're all victims.
[00:06:28] They all need to go into safe houses, which is something I've heard a lot lately.
[00:06:33] That's a very expensive and sort of totalizing,
[00:06:36] you know, idea of what women need who are out there.
[00:06:39] And it is mostly women.
[00:06:40] There are programs that actually can help sex workers,
[00:06:44] you know, either get out of that life or, you know, reduce the harm
[00:06:47] that it causes.
[00:06:49] And we're just not really investing in them.
[00:06:51] I mean, lead is a program that, you know, can go out
[00:06:54] and get people involved in programs right now, but they don't have enough money.
[00:06:58] And right now they are focused almost entirely on the drug law
[00:07:02] and trying to divert people from drug charges downtown.
[00:07:05] So it's it's also a question of resources.
[00:07:08] So and I don't disagree with you that that there's a lack of resources
[00:07:13] that's been put into this.
[00:07:14] But this is something that bugged me about the Seattle left for a while,
[00:07:19] which is that they seem on any kind of range of issues to be much better
[00:07:23] at sort of making a critique of the current sort of sort of,
[00:07:27] you know, old school status quo and saying, oh, the old solicitation
[00:07:30] law had equity issues to it and therefore let's get rid of it.
[00:07:34] Well, it's not the current left.
[00:07:35] That's a 2015 work group that was appointed, I believe, by Ed Murray.
[00:07:38] Passed that law in when? 2020, right?
[00:07:40] 2020. Yes.
[00:07:42] It was the immediately preceding council that got rid of that law.
[00:07:46] But I'm just providing a little context, though,
[00:07:48] because I know you're going to say, oh, my God, 2020, everybody was freaking out.
[00:07:51] This was a very long process that led to this and a lot of research that went into it.
[00:07:55] And I'm not trying to equate this with the with the lunacy of 2020
[00:08:00] and the reckoning stuff.
[00:08:01] I grant you that there was a long process that led up to it.
[00:08:04] My point is, is that they tore down the law and they didn't replace it with
[00:08:10] they didn't fund the programs or the outreach or the kind of regulatory
[00:08:15] structures to actually sort of address the potential problems that they were.
[00:08:20] Using the law. So you say they tore it down.
[00:08:22] They wasn't like we went from from 100 to zero.
[00:08:25] They weren't really enforcing that particular law because it was so widely
[00:08:29] viewed as racist in its in its application that, you know,
[00:08:33] that the city was going after Johns instead.
[00:08:35] And that was a long process starting in like 2009.
[00:08:38] Right. The weather was going after Johns or using the law itself.
[00:08:43] There were actually efforts going on to kind of reduce the level of sort of street
[00:08:48] level prostitution that was happening out there on Aurora.
[00:08:50] And there was less of it for a while, for a while. Right.
[00:08:53] And then what happened was they passed this law.
[00:08:57] The cops start stop enforcing the Johns stuff to a large extent.
[00:09:02] The city attorney starts stop, stop, stop prosecuting that stuff.
[00:09:05] And, you know, it kind of blew up much bigger. Right.
[00:09:08] And it's what do you think about that?
[00:09:10] I don't think that that's a valid argument.
[00:09:12] I think that I think that that stuff stopped way before when you're
[00:09:16] characterizing it as Seattle Times was reporting that after 2020,
[00:09:21] you know, it became sort of open season that people around the country
[00:09:24] knew that Seattle was a place that you weren't going to get busted
[00:09:27] if you were trafficking. And that's how the Seattle Times.
[00:09:29] I read this particular reporters reporting that you're referring to.
[00:09:33] And I would I would say that if any if the word
[00:09:36] confaganda applies to anything, it certainly applies there.
[00:09:40] But but I mean, you know, I guess my larger point is like, I'm not
[00:09:44] I'm not saying like, oh, my God, like the this right wing council
[00:09:48] is doing all this crazy stuff in reaction to the left wing council before it.
[00:09:52] I'm saying we're not going to solve any of these problems
[00:09:55] if we don't look at things that actually address them.
[00:09:58] And I don't think that instituting a new law on loitering
[00:10:03] and arresting people for loitering and being in an era in an area
[00:10:07] is going to address that problem.
[00:10:09] I think the more you introduce like the carceral system,
[00:10:12] the more you introduce police into the equation when they don't have to be there.
[00:10:15] You know, it's just it leads to worse outcomes.
[00:10:18] So the city's tried the Nordic model of arresting Johns and
[00:10:23] getting rid of the loitering law.
[00:10:24] That's what we've been doing up until now.
[00:10:26] That may go away.
[00:10:27] Groups on the left, like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch,
[00:10:32] say cities like Seattle should go in the other direction
[00:10:35] and decriminalize sex work entirely, remove all criminal sanctions.
[00:10:41] It seems like that's unlikely to be a part of the conversation at this point.
[00:10:44] I'm just I'm just thinking of the different options.
[00:10:46] Yeah, the tide doesn't certainly doesn't seem to be moving in that direction.
[00:10:50] I will say this.
[00:10:51] I think that there's a perfectly valid argument to be made
[00:10:54] that we should, you know, decriminalize or even legalize sex work.
[00:10:58] But do you have any faith that if this that the city, if they did that,
[00:11:02] that it would result in better outcomes, that they would stand up the structures
[00:11:06] that are necessary to kind of allow something like that kind of transition
[00:11:09] to happen in a way that doesn't lead to worse outcomes?
[00:11:12] Because I don't have any faith that they would do that.
[00:11:15] And again, this is the point I was trying to make, like
[00:11:17] the left is really going to kind of withdrawing the laws,
[00:11:21] but then not standing up, you know, not funding the programs, not setting up.
[00:11:26] That's not in charge of funding anything right now,
[00:11:28] whether it's measure 110 in Oregon, right?
[00:11:30] We're going to decriminalize hard drug use in the state of Oregon.
[00:11:34] But they didn't stand up the treatment or the other stuff, right?
[00:11:36] And so the downtown streets of Portland
[00:11:40] turned into a kind of, you know, semi hellscape, right?
[00:11:43] And then the voters rebelled against it or let's just stay with one.
[00:11:47] That's to say with one. So what about that?
[00:11:49] Not funding, not fully funding this idea.
[00:11:53] The Nordic model that we've been trying to do.
[00:11:54] First of all, I don't know that the Nordic model is a Nordic model anymore.
[00:11:57] I mean, that was something from the 2000s that we're still like,
[00:12:00] as Seattle likes to do, still sort of catching up on.
[00:12:03] We like to be from Norway.
[00:12:05] We like to be very, we like to be not very state of the art
[00:12:08] on what is evidence based in my opinion.
[00:12:11] And with the prostitution of Ballard.
[00:12:12] But like the old days.
[00:12:15] But your question is, is what do I say to to what?
[00:12:18] To sex work decriminalization?
[00:12:20] He's saying that terrible council, that terrible ass council
[00:12:23] just let chaos reign and didn't fund it.
[00:12:27] Yeah, we always forget.
[00:12:28] We always forget there was a global pandemic on this show somehow.
[00:12:32] But yeah, I mean, I certainly think that funding some of these solutions
[00:12:35] is the actual answer to to to a lot of these problems,
[00:12:40] you know, going to drugs, going to homelessness.
[00:12:41] But I mean, right now, I think we are in a situation
[00:12:44] where we have a council and a mayor that's not going to be able to do
[00:12:47] that because we have a 240 million dollar deficit.
[00:12:49] We've got to pay cops, you know, 23 percent raises,
[00:12:52] which is going to be tens of millions of dollars adding to that deficit.
[00:12:56] And so, yeah, we don't have a lot of money right now.
[00:12:58] And, you know, my solution would be funding evidence based things that work.
[00:13:02] And Sandeep's solution would be arresting people for loitering and,
[00:13:06] you know, throwing them into jail because there's no diversion program.
[00:13:10] So would you like to see decriminalization or legalization?
[00:13:13] Well, regulation and taxation?
[00:13:15] Yeah, I mean, but that's not going to happen.
[00:13:17] I mean, yes, I do think sex work should be decriminalized.
[00:13:20] But I think that's somewhat that's a that's a theoretical question
[00:13:23] in the city of Seattle and in the United States generally.
[00:13:27] We're not going to be the first.
[00:13:28] And I don't think we're anywhere near having that conversation.
[00:13:30] So I think the better conversation is about libertarian.
[00:13:32] Why is that? I mean, this is a state, this is a city that we legalize.
[00:13:36] I'm from Canada, so I don't understand anything that happens here really.
[00:13:39] But I'm from Texas.
[00:13:41] So we we legalized recreational marijuana before
[00:13:46] almost anywhere else except for Colorado.
[00:13:48] Gay marriage. It's kind of a liver that live place.
[00:13:51] Why why wouldn't it be a city that would legalize or decriminalize prostitution?
[00:13:56] Again, I'm not opposed to the idea.
[00:13:58] And I'm not saying I'm supportive of Kathy's proposal to.
[00:14:01] I'm asking for you as a political analyst, though, like what?
[00:14:04] Why why wouldn't that happen?
[00:14:05] Do you think are these different issues?
[00:14:07] Well, I think it's unlikely to happen because right now
[00:14:11] there's a public rebellion against what seems like,
[00:14:15] you know, efforts on the left to sort of.
[00:14:18] Move towards a more whatever you want to call it,
[00:14:21] like Bob Kettle would say, a kind of culture of permissiveness, right?
[00:14:25] You know, I've talked about radical.
[00:14:26] Did he get that from you?
[00:14:27] Five seconds. All right.
[00:14:30] Let's hope so. Yeah.
[00:14:32] Let's go to the vest. But um,
[00:14:34] so I do think there's, you know, people are kind of looking around.
[00:14:37] And look, I think there is social harm
[00:14:38] that's caused by the prosecution that's happening down in Aurora.
[00:14:40] And maybe some women are doing it of their own volition.
[00:14:43] I don't disagree with that.
[00:14:44] But there's obviously pimps operating out there.
[00:14:47] That stretch between one hundred twenty fifth and thirty
[00:14:48] and one hundred thirty.
[00:14:49] And there have been a number of shootings, you know, I mean.
[00:14:53] But nobody's disagree.
[00:14:54] I mean, yeah. Yeah.
[00:14:55] And I'm and I'm saying, you know, well, to answer your question, David,
[00:14:59] I mean, I think that marijuana and gay marriage are,
[00:15:02] you know, both sort of nationally popular concept like getting,
[00:15:06] you know, legalizing gay marriage, legalizing marijuana.
[00:15:08] It's happening all over.
[00:15:09] They are not harmful things.
[00:15:11] And whereas like if you're looking at something like fentanyl
[00:15:14] or, you know, if you're looking at a sex trade that is by and large
[00:15:18] very harmful to people, then yeah, it's just a different thing.
[00:15:21] It's not live and let live. Let's have fentanyl everywhere.
[00:15:23] It's, you know, live and let marijuana is not harmful
[00:15:26] and gay marriage is advantageous.
[00:15:28] So I think that's why.
[00:15:29] Let's turn now to some community questions we've got about homelessness.
[00:15:33] Dave writes Seattle Nice.
[00:15:36] We have quite a few shelters right within a one mile area near Aurora.
[00:15:41] What does the city need to do to ensure that all parts of the city
[00:15:44] share equally and proportionally in providing services to homeless folks?
[00:15:48] Sundeep, why isn't the city doing a better job in making sure
[00:15:52] that the entire city share the burdens of,
[00:15:58] you know, affordable housing, that sort of thing equally?
[00:16:00] It's a good question.
[00:16:01] I'm part of it is just the pragmatic realities
[00:16:04] of citing permanent supportive housing building, right?
[00:16:08] The providers are going where they can acquire
[00:16:11] either land to build or an existing structure that they can convert over
[00:16:14] to that, and that tends to be in certain parts of the city.
[00:16:17] Right. I'm on the board chair for DSC this year. Right.
[00:16:20] And we just opened Burbridge Place at 86 in Aurora.
[00:16:24] It's a 124 units of it's a beautiful building.
[00:16:29] I was just there at the opening a couple of months ago.
[00:16:32] It's 124 units for for people who had been
[00:16:36] people who have disabilities, who had been suffering homelessness and that,
[00:16:39] you know, so so part of it is just the pragmatic,
[00:16:42] you know, opportunity of, you know, if we're there's been a move
[00:16:45] towards hoteling rights, where the hotels you go by an old hotel converted over.
[00:16:49] Right. That happens to be concentrated in places like Aurora.
[00:16:51] But then there's also like, you know, politics to it too. Right.
[00:16:55] I mean, I agree with you that the city should be spreading
[00:16:59] the efforts to address homelessness more widely.
[00:17:02] I mean, I think Eric and I agree.
[00:17:03] We need tons more permanent supportive housing.
[00:17:06] We need tons more tiny home villages. Right.
[00:17:09] You know, and those should be spread out widely across the city.
[00:17:12] But, you know, politics comes into play like it's hard for me to imagine that,
[00:17:16] you know, Broadmoor is going to get a tiny home village anytime soon.
[00:17:19] But, you know, I could see it.
[00:17:20] I could see one on our right. Right.
[00:17:22] You know, happening right.
[00:17:23] Broadward, Broadmoor.
[00:17:25] That's different.
[00:17:25] But I mean, I think I think that, you know, in response to this question,
[00:17:29] I mean, the answer is we need a lot more of everything.
[00:17:31] I mean, I was thinking about the
[00:17:34] Mary Pilgrim Inn over by over in Bitter Lake.
[00:17:38] And that is a place that's been controversial.
[00:17:40] It's, you know, people complain about it.
[00:17:42] But I mean, the fact is, you know, the people who originally went there
[00:17:44] were living in a very problematic encampment at Broadview Thompson Elementary School.
[00:17:48] And when you put people in shelter and when you put people in tiny homes
[00:17:52] and when you put people in permanent housing,
[00:17:54] that is people who are no longer on the street.
[00:17:56] So while, you know, while it does, you know, perhaps seem like
[00:18:00] and it is true that there are concentrations in the city,
[00:18:03] you know, on Aurora in the Chinatown International District,
[00:18:06] you know, in parts of Pioneer Square.
[00:18:09] The fact is we need a lot more everywhere.
[00:18:12] And so what that's going to look like is probably, you know,
[00:18:15] if we ever get there, it's probably going to be more shelters on Aurora,
[00:18:18] but also more shelters, you know, downtown, more shelters all over the place.
[00:18:22] And I think they should be in Magnolia.
[00:18:24] I think they should be in Laurelhurst.
[00:18:26] But but that is a
[00:18:30] that is a, you know, politically,
[00:18:33] politically challenging prospect.
[00:18:35] Yeah. And to your point, which I agree with that,
[00:18:38] that this is part of the solution to encampments and
[00:18:43] and some of the issues we've argued about about
[00:18:46] the socially detrimental aspects that could come out of out of
[00:18:50] unaddressed homelessness, right, of people living on the streets.
[00:18:52] And DSC is open at opening a new building in in
[00:18:56] a couple months down in Burien. Right.
[00:18:59] And so trying to kind of move into this.
[00:19:01] Well, I think it's all all on track.
[00:19:04] And and and the and the organization has made a commitment
[00:19:07] that many of the people that are going to move into that building
[00:19:10] are people that are currently homeless right now in Burien. Right.
[00:19:13] I mean, it is an effort to help alleviate
[00:19:17] and address some of the issues that I know, Erica, you've been covering,
[00:19:22] you know, intensively, incessantly.
[00:19:25] All right. Let's move on to another audience question.
[00:19:29] This one, I think from Kippy, is the homelessness issue on
[00:19:32] Aurora really a homelessness problem or is it more of an addiction problem?
[00:19:37] Sort of a chicken or the egg question, which came first, Erica.
[00:19:40] What do you think? Well, I mean, I think that there is
[00:19:43] I think all these things get conflated and you see people on the streets
[00:19:47] who are using drugs, you know, and causing disorder.
[00:19:50] And there's there is an assumption that those people are all homeless,
[00:19:54] for one thing, which they are not.
[00:19:57] And then there is also an assumption that people with fentanyl addictions
[00:20:01] or alcohol addictions or whatever, you know, meth addictions
[00:20:03] represent the majority of homeless people, which, you know, study after study.
[00:20:07] I mean, you can go to I was looking at HUD statistics today.
[00:20:11] It's it's about a third or less of unsheltered people who have addictions.
[00:20:16] And so I think that you have to sort of disaggregate that a little bit.
[00:20:21] You know, I don't think we can know with certainty
[00:20:24] sort of when the addiction started or got worse
[00:20:27] or, you know, whether it developed before a person became unsheltered.
[00:20:31] On sort of an aggregate level, I think that's very difficult to disentangle.
[00:20:34] But I do think and I do very much believe that getting sober
[00:20:40] or getting into harm reduction or just getting better
[00:20:43] and also engaging in less problematic behavior.
[00:20:46] It's really hard when you don't have a home.
[00:20:47] You go to treatment.
[00:20:48] I keep hearing treatment first this this term as opposed to housing first.
[00:20:52] And, you know, I've been to treatment.
[00:20:54] You can read about it in my book.
[00:20:55] You know, it would have been impossible for me to stay sober, which I am.
[00:21:00] If I had been ejected onto the street because people are self
[00:21:03] medicating when they I mean, when you drink a beer, you know,
[00:21:07] you may be self medicating for something, you know, the hard workday, whatever.
[00:21:11] And so so, yeah, so I think it's it's hard to disaggregate.
[00:21:15] But I think we also shouldn't
[00:21:17] we should look at people's, you know, individual problems and solve for those
[00:21:21] instead of sort of lumping everybody into one category.
[00:21:24] Yeah. So same question.
[00:21:26] Is it a homelessness problem or more of an addiction problem?
[00:21:30] I find this argument to be stale and and really, really unhelpful.
[00:21:36] Right. There is an argument on the left that you see sort of folks
[00:21:39] who are polarized on the left to say it's it's entirely a housing cost
[00:21:44] problem or a rising rent problem.
[00:21:45] And then you see folks on what I would call the kind of Seattle is dying
[00:21:49] sort of right.
[00:21:49] Who's like, no, no, no, it's addiction, it's addiction, it's drugs.
[00:21:52] You guys are are mischaracterizing the problem.
[00:21:55] And, you know, having kind of, you know, been on the board since 2015
[00:22:02] and kind of worked in these issues, it's an all of the above problem.
[00:22:05] Like homelessness is a complicated problem.
[00:22:08] And I and a lot of factors go into it.
[00:22:11] Look, I do think rising housing costs are probably the biggest driver
[00:22:15] of homelessness. There was a study, a national study about eight years ago
[00:22:18] that found that in urban areas, when average rents go up
[00:22:23] a hundred dollars, that leads to about a 15 percent increase
[00:22:26] in the number of homeless people. Right.
[00:22:27] So there is a reality there where we've been we're an expensive city.
[00:22:31] Rising rent, really rising housing costs.
[00:22:34] You know, I've been a beneficiary of that in terms of that.
[00:22:37] You know, I live in Finney Ridge and own a house.
[00:22:38] Right. So I've I've in some ways, you know,
[00:22:42] gotten the fruits of that kind of stuff.
[00:22:44] But for a lot of people, that makes it impossible for them to say.
[00:22:47] That said, you don't get into DSE
[00:22:50] housing unless you've got really serious issues, right.
[00:22:53] And the permits for housing, which typically involve
[00:22:55] substance abuse issues, addiction issues, as well as as often mental health
[00:23:00] issues. Right. All of those things.
[00:23:03] But I think you are talking about a subset like I was saying.
[00:23:05] I mean, there are different, you know, types of homelessness.
[00:23:08] There are there are.
[00:23:09] That's a point well taken.
[00:23:11] And there are a lot of people that fall into homelessness
[00:23:12] temporarily and then and then kind of self exit.
[00:23:16] Right. Somebody loses a job or has some kind of health thing.
[00:23:19] And maybe they couch surf for a while, but then they find another job.
[00:23:21] You know, there's a lot of people that kind of fall in and out of homelessness.
[00:23:25] And we don't sort of.
[00:23:26] But in terms of really chronic, visible homelessness
[00:23:29] of the sort that, you know, organizations like DSE or Plymouth
[00:23:32] Housing address like those folks have have
[00:23:37] typically have a wide range of of issues.
[00:23:41] And the reason it's so hard to address is you've really got to go
[00:23:44] at all of them right to have any hope of kind of making progress.
[00:23:48] So I just find that this argument sort of silos people into
[00:23:52] do you need housing or do you need to?
[00:23:54] Yeah. Conflict in camps.
[00:23:55] And it makes it really hard for us to pardon my French fucking solve the,
[00:23:58] you know, make progress on solving the problem.
[00:24:00] I mean, I think sometimes I mean, I think the intent
[00:24:02] to that question is sort of a response to what we were hearing in 2019,
[00:24:06] which was this is only a housing problem and and don't even bring up
[00:24:11] the possibility of addiction if you're talking about homelessness.
[00:24:13] I mean, I have never heard anybody really say that.
[00:24:15] I have. And I'm talking about reporters.
[00:24:17] All right. I want to turn to a related question and not you,
[00:24:19] but I want to turn to a related question about affordable housing here from.
[00:24:24] Oh, this is from myself.
[00:24:26] So North Seattle City Council member Kathy Moore,
[00:24:29] who you all know well, represents you turned up the heat this week.
[00:24:33] She's against an affordable housing bill that her colleague Tammy Morales
[00:24:37] sponsored, but in a recent council meeting raised a question about decorum.
[00:24:42] I'm going to have to stay very calm.
[00:24:46] I would respectfully request that my colleague,
[00:24:50] my esteemed colleague, refer it refrain from making any comments
[00:24:54] on the motivations of the council members who chose not to put forth
[00:24:59] a recommendation for this bill.
[00:25:01] I hope we can keep it a civil and respectful disagreement
[00:25:05] on policy and refrain from this.
[00:25:08] This vilification of your fellow council members in the media.
[00:25:13] It is uncalled for.
[00:25:15] It is unprofessional.
[00:25:17] We can have a respectful difference of opinion.
[00:25:20] That's North Seattle Council member Kathy Moore.
[00:25:23] So, Erica, the question to you, what would this she's talking about
[00:25:27] at Tammy Morales bill that she voted against and was against.
[00:25:32] So I guess it's a two parter.
[00:25:33] What would that bill have done?
[00:25:35] And then what is Kathy Moore so upset about?
[00:25:37] Well, I want to just just note one thing that we didn't get on that
[00:25:40] audio, which is that she also accused Tammy Morales of calling her evil
[00:25:43] and a corporate shill and saying that she doesn't care about
[00:25:46] her fellow human beings, that Kathy Moore does not or that
[00:25:49] the other council members don't.
[00:25:50] So it was it was a pretty extreme statement.
[00:25:53] She was really upset.
[00:25:54] She's very upset.
[00:25:56] I have not been able to find any examples anywhere
[00:26:01] Tammy Morales saying anything of that sort.
[00:26:03] And indeed, she denies having said anything of that sort.
[00:26:07] So the legislation, I mean, it's kind of it's funny
[00:26:10] the corporate shill thing, because it's a pro development
[00:26:14] piece of legislation that would have basically made it easier,
[00:26:16] increased density, you know, given height bonuses to community groups
[00:26:20] that develop affordable housing on either their property or in collaboration
[00:26:24] with other developers.
[00:26:26] And there were some other bonuses for building in neighborhood residential areas.
[00:26:30] So traditional single family areas, you know, they could they could do that
[00:26:34] if they provided other types of amenities.
[00:26:36] And this has been in the works for a while, and it did get defeated
[00:26:40] this week, seven to two.
[00:26:42] So that's that's that's the legislation.
[00:26:44] It was also a five year pilot.
[00:26:46] So it could have helped up to 35 community groups and at no cost to the city.
[00:26:50] I realize I I realize I sound like I'm like a big booster of this legislation.
[00:26:55] I'll be honest, I did not follow it that closely until it became
[00:26:58] quite controversial in the last couple of months.
[00:27:00] Who were the two that voted Tammy Morales and Dan Strauss?
[00:27:04] Actually, Dan voted sure.
[00:27:07] And then the clerk said, excuse me.
[00:27:10] And he's then he said yes.
[00:27:11] But he sort of gave it a very like reluctant off Mike.
[00:27:15] Sure, you can see him.
[00:27:16] But if ever go to a Ballard FC soccer game, he's there.
[00:27:21] Dan Strauss. OK. OK.
[00:27:23] Well, you raised a few things.
[00:27:24] First of all, Kathy's comment.
[00:27:26] She obviously went too far.
[00:27:27] I don't think Tammy ever directly called her a corporate chill or whatever.
[00:27:31] I think she was kind of mixing her Tammy up with Chama Sawant,
[00:27:35] who always routinely called them all corporate children.
[00:27:39] Because they were on the same side.
[00:27:40] I do. I do think Tammy did impugn the motives of her colleagues
[00:27:44] over why they were voting against her bill.
[00:27:46] I think she even said it publicly to the Seattle Times.
[00:27:49] But I've heard she's also said it privately or wrote an e-mails
[00:27:52] to some groups that where she basically said,
[00:27:55] my colleagues don't want affordable housing.
[00:27:57] That's why they're voting against this bill or they don't support
[00:28:00] affordable. She didn't understand why they weren't supporting an affordable
[00:28:03] housing bill. I get why I wasn't just Kathy that found that kind of,
[00:28:07] you know, irritating.
[00:28:10] I think there were other council members, too, that felt like
[00:28:13] that was an unfair mischaracterization of their motivations
[00:28:16] for not supporting Tammy's bill.
[00:28:18] I think I talked to a council member today who was telling me
[00:28:20] I support affordable housing.
[00:28:22] I just thought there were problems with Tammy's bill, you know?
[00:28:24] And if we want to talk about the bill itself, I mean, Tammy
[00:28:28] worked on it for a long time, but we had a new council that came in
[00:28:32] with a new majority that just came in just a few months ago.
[00:28:35] Tammy had some conversations with them, but it's hardly like
[00:28:38] she really worked her bill with her colleagues, right?
[00:28:41] In a way that that built a supportive majority of five to pass it.
[00:28:47] Do you really think that would have been possible?
[00:28:49] The fact that Dan Strauss, the one other person who voted yes
[00:28:52] right before he voted sure.
[00:28:54] Yeah, who voted sure. Sure.
[00:28:56] I'm introduced to kind of hostile amendment to, you know,
[00:29:01] significantly change her bill right before that got voted down.
[00:29:05] I think that's I think that's emblematic.
[00:29:06] The fact that Tammy is out on her own on the left on this council.
[00:29:09] And I think if you're if you're sort of like going to get mad at her
[00:29:12] every time she fails to pass something and say, oh, well,
[00:29:14] how dare she be frustrated or express frustration?
[00:29:17] I think I think you're I think it's emblematic of the fact
[00:29:19] that she didn't make a whole lot of real effort
[00:29:23] to actually bring her colleagues along as the.
[00:29:26] But I'm saying you're going to be able to say that for the next four years.
[00:29:29] I mean, every time that's going to be your argument,
[00:29:31] because I think and I'll say this straight up, I think Tammy
[00:29:35] is one of the more sort of ideological and performative council members
[00:29:39] who'd rather get the win from social media and the left
[00:29:43] and public coal are writing about it and whatever.
[00:29:45] Then she is and actually trying to like get to five with people
[00:29:49] she thinks are a bunch of reactionary knuckle draggers. Right.
[00:29:51] I mean, I think that's really the dynamic that was going on there.
[00:29:54] That council. I will say this to her bill like it's been characterized,
[00:29:59] I think all over social media as this.
[00:30:00] Oh, my God. How can anybody vote against this?
[00:30:03] This is great. You know, pro density, pro development bill.
[00:30:08] But you know, this thing was was cooked.
[00:30:11] I and like you, Erica, I didn't follow it super closely
[00:30:14] until I got controversial.
[00:30:15] And I recently went back and looked at some of the council central staff
[00:30:18] memos, you know, when the bill was introduced earlier this year.
[00:30:22] And what's all over it at the beginning is Tammy was writing this bill
[00:30:28] because she wanted to kind of give her friends in that sort of social housing.
[00:30:34] And while you're really talking about impugning motives.
[00:30:37] Well, I read it and read it in the legislation.
[00:30:40] It talks specifically about public development authorities
[00:30:42] and social housing is one of the key elements
[00:30:46] of what's going to get funded here. Right.
[00:30:48] So it's right there in the early versions and early drafts of the legislation.
[00:30:52] And I do think there's cause to be suspicious of of of of, you know,
[00:30:57] Tammy Morales, I realize you don't like her.
[00:30:59] I mean, you have made that quite clear on this.
[00:31:01] Well, I don't have anything personally against her, but I think I don't like
[00:31:06] the fact that she's done a whole bunch of performative bullshit things
[00:31:09] like the Black Brilliant project. Remember that?
[00:31:11] Let's let's stay on this topic so I can respond
[00:31:14] to the objections from the actual council members,
[00:31:17] which were not substantive.
[00:31:20] They were based mostly on sort of incorrect misunderstandings,
[00:31:25] I would say, of like what the comprehensive like Maritza Rivera said.
[00:31:28] We need to do the comprehensive plan first.
[00:31:31] If we say that about every bit of legislation
[00:31:33] that has anything to do with transportation or density or housing,
[00:31:36] then that's going to be next year before we can talk about anything.
[00:31:40] And the comprehensive plan is not legislation.
[00:31:43] You know, it was just it was about all this stuff
[00:31:45] that's sort of floating in the ether that the council needs to do,
[00:31:48] supposedly before it can do this little pilot project,
[00:31:51] which is a five year project to allow a little more density to,
[00:31:55] you know, potentially to potential developers.
[00:31:58] I mean, it might not produce any development.
[00:31:59] I mean, obviously now it won't because it's dead.
[00:32:01] But I just I didn't hear any substantive objections
[00:32:04] to the actual legislation.
[00:32:06] Sandy, if you're saying it's performative and it was for social housing.
[00:32:09] But what people said in the council chamber was we just,
[00:32:12] you know, we just don't think it's baked or it's going to provide
[00:32:15] the wrong kind of affordable housing or we need to look at the housing levy.
[00:32:18] We don't know what's in there, which, by the way,
[00:32:20] we do know what's in the housing levy.
[00:32:21] I mean, it was just it was a lot of stuff that indicated to me
[00:32:24] that they didn't really know it was in the legislation,
[00:32:26] but they didn't want to vote for it.
[00:32:28] All right. We're not going to get a ton of agreement there,
[00:32:31] but they're friends.
[00:32:32] These folks are friends for years and years and years.
[00:32:34] So despite how it sounds. All right.
[00:32:37] We've got another question from a community member.
[00:32:39] Let's turn to policing and crime in the Aurora area.
[00:32:43] Well, this one is kind of a general question.
[00:32:45] I've heard SPD deprioritizes everything except robbery and murder,
[00:32:50] and they don't address lower level crime at all.
[00:32:53] That's something I hear, too, from folks.
[00:32:55] Erica, true or false?
[00:32:57] I mean, it's false as a blanket statement.
[00:33:00] However, it is true that SPD has very much prioritized priority one calls.
[00:33:06] And that's not just robberies and murders.
[00:33:08] It's all kinds of stuff.
[00:33:09] It's overdoses, it's assaults, it's major crimes, basically.
[00:33:13] So if you call the police for something that is underneath that level,
[00:33:17] they may or may not show up.
[00:33:19] You know, I would argue that a lot of times,
[00:33:21] I mean, in my experience, when I've had to call the police
[00:33:23] to like report something stolen or my car broken into,
[00:33:26] I don't really honestly care if a cop shows up at my house at all.
[00:33:30] I frankly most of the time because it takes so long,
[00:33:33] I'd rather just file a report online.
[00:33:34] That stuff is not happening as much anymore.
[00:33:36] That's absolutely true.
[00:33:37] And if you're calling for like a noise complaint, good luck.
[00:33:41] I mean, you know, that is that is not something
[00:33:43] unless it's a really, really, you know, slow night,
[00:33:46] that's not something you're going to get anybody to respond to.
[00:33:48] So that's absolutely true.
[00:33:50] But the police department has said that they have gotten their response times
[00:33:53] for those priority one calls down to about seven minutes
[00:33:57] and maybe a little bit over,
[00:34:00] which is which is where they have said they want to be for a long time.
[00:34:02] But they have done that by sort of deprioritizing
[00:34:05] some of those lower priority calls.
[00:34:07] Yeah, just for the for the sake of the audience and people who aren't
[00:34:10] like nerds like us about this stuff, but they're that when a call comes
[00:34:13] into nine on one, they break it up into four different sort of priority categories.
[00:34:17] So as Erica saying, they've been really emphasizing
[00:34:20] responding to priority one calls, which are the most serious crimes.
[00:34:23] And they try to, you know, send out a response to priority two,
[00:34:27] which is the next level down.
[00:34:28] But yeah, if it's priority three or four, you know,
[00:34:31] you're very, very unlikely to get a police response.
[00:34:33] I was just talking with
[00:34:35] a person in the mayor's office maybe a month ago who was telling me,
[00:34:39] you know, at the East Precinct on any given night,
[00:34:42] they're supposed to be 18 officers staffing the East Precinct.
[00:34:45] And typically recently, this was about a month ago.
[00:34:47] They were having four available cops in there to respond to 911 calls.
[00:34:53] And so when you're down that many bodies, it becomes
[00:34:58] an act of triage of what you respond to and what you don't.
[00:35:01] And yeah, there's a lot of stuff
[00:35:03] that you would think ought to merit a response, right?
[00:35:08] That's not getting it these days.
[00:35:09] Now, and I and I should say, you know, as the sort of
[00:35:12] as the token leftist on this panel, David, I guess you're the centrist.
[00:35:17] Sitting here.
[00:35:18] You know, I mean, I think that made me
[00:35:22] the you know, I mean, there is there is a lot of stuff
[00:35:24] that truly like having a cop there does not improve the situation either.
[00:35:28] It's, you know, a very expensive person to take down your details
[00:35:32] so you can file them with your insurance because your car got broken into.
[00:35:36] And we're just talking about 911.
[00:35:37] I'm not talking about having cops on the street,
[00:35:39] which is a whole different issue.
[00:35:41] And, you know, and there are times when having a police officer there
[00:35:44] can make things much, much worse because you're talking about a person
[00:35:46] with a gun who sometimes responds to crises and is not always as well
[00:35:50] trained as trained crisis responders, which is, you know, why
[00:35:53] there have been efforts to fund more of those type of responders.
[00:35:57] We have six right now in the city, which is not enough.
[00:36:00] They're not responding up here at all.
[00:36:02] They're they're barely going out of downtown.
[00:36:04] I've seen them on Capitol Hill.
[00:36:05] But this is the care care team. Yeah.
[00:36:08] And so so we need more of that.
[00:36:11] All right. And speaking of crime, I've got one more question
[00:36:14] and then we're just going to open it up to audience questions
[00:36:16] sort of right after this one will be audience questions
[00:36:18] for the rest of the night here.
[00:36:19] I wanted to ask about a strange incident
[00:36:22] that occurred in the fall or incidents,
[00:36:25] just because we never talked about it on the podcast at all.
[00:36:27] So I'm not sure what you all think where a 13 year old girl
[00:36:31] and 15 year old boy were accused of intentionally hitting sex workers
[00:36:35] on Aurora Ave using stolen cars.
[00:36:38] I think I don't know if they were KIAs, but they were the type of cars
[00:36:41] that were part of this social media trend.
[00:36:44] Yeah, there were stealing cars and running down
[00:36:46] lawsuits with stolen cars. Yeah.
[00:36:48] I bring it up because it's the kind of incident that can make people
[00:36:52] that live in this neighborhood feel freaked out and unsafe.
[00:36:56] And what the hell is going on?
[00:36:57] It seems like, oh, my God, society is just out of control.
[00:37:01] And I just wonder, you know, what can the city do about something like that?
[00:37:05] What this new council kind of ran on?
[00:37:08] We're going to get a get a handle on this stuff.
[00:37:10] We're going to we're going to rein in the chaos that the old council created.
[00:37:15] But when I think about policy solutions to something like that,
[00:37:17] it seems pretty big.
[00:37:18] So that question or just what are your thoughts?
[00:37:21] Maybe let's start with Erica.
[00:37:22] Yeah, I mean, there's a horrible crime
[00:37:25] and in a horrible story and such young kids.
[00:37:28] I mean, this is I mean, the fact is there are certain crimes
[00:37:32] that it is very hard to prevent.
[00:37:34] You know, you can talk about upstream solutions to sort of help kids,
[00:37:37] you know, not go into these social media rabbit holes
[00:37:41] and think that it's acceptable to commit, you know, crimes
[00:37:44] and sort of dehumanize people in this way.
[00:37:46] But that is that is a big project and an expensive one.
[00:37:50] And crimes, random crimes like that, unfortunately do happen.
[00:37:54] And yeah, I mean, I was talking to the the King County prosecutors
[00:37:59] juvenile division head Jimmy Hung the other night.
[00:38:02] And, you know, he was saying that instead of joining,
[00:38:06] I mean, this is this is his, you know, his sort of observation
[00:38:10] from his work instead of sort of joining traditional gangs,
[00:38:13] you know, with geographic, you know, centrality.
[00:38:17] A lot of kids are just sort of on social media and they,
[00:38:20] you know, pick these stupid names and they go out and they,
[00:38:23] you know, commit, you know, sometimes just, you know,
[00:38:25] crimes like stealing cars and leaving them somewhere.
[00:38:28] I had a rental car.
[00:38:29] I had a Kia that got broken into in New Orleans a couple of years ago.
[00:38:33] And it was definitely sort of the start of this.
[00:38:35] But sometimes they commit really heinous crimes.
[00:38:37] And so we have to, you know, then kind of figure out how
[00:38:41] how to deal with kids like this in the juvenile justice system
[00:38:45] so that, you know, we can get them at 13 and 15
[00:38:48] and not have them go on to become sort of, you know,
[00:38:51] to a career of this.
[00:38:53] Yeah, no youth jail.
[00:38:55] No youth jail, man.
[00:38:56] You know, I mean, you're being sarcastic.
[00:38:58] I am being sarcastic. Can you explain your sarcasm?
[00:38:59] I just, you know, I found the whole debate over the whole push for
[00:39:05] the county was building a was intending to build
[00:39:08] a new youth jail facility, right, because the old one was dilapidated
[00:39:12] and they were, you know, housing.
[00:39:15] Well, they can't.
[00:39:16] Yeah, right. But but but
[00:39:19] there was an enormous sort of sort of pushback against
[00:39:23] you know, against that, which to some extent isn't
[00:39:27] completely realistic. Right.
[00:39:28] Sometimes you do have it's it's a that crime was just terrible.
[00:39:31] I remember reading the news story, the Seattle Times story
[00:39:34] about that crime and just being horrified by it.
[00:39:36] And, you know, these prostitutes reading rundown.
[00:39:38] And then, of course, because they're engaged in this,
[00:39:41] you know, in this kind of shadow world, they weren't typically
[00:39:44] calling the police or were getting help.
[00:39:47] They're just being traumatized and left alone there.
[00:39:50] It's terrible. The whole thing is horrible.
[00:39:51] But, you know, I do think sometimes like, you know, people need to,
[00:39:57] you know, people who commit horrible crimes need to go to the pokey.
[00:40:01] You know, and and I feel like there's I mean, we're talking about children.
[00:40:05] So, I mean, I do think that they ran down.
[00:40:08] I do think that you're sort of, you know,
[00:40:11] you're hand waving about, you know, put them in the pokey.
[00:40:14] I mean, you're talking about people whose whose minds are not developed yet.
[00:40:17] I mean, right. And if it was if it was your kid,
[00:40:19] I don't know how you would feel. But I think we should work to rehabilitate them, too.
[00:40:23] But like if you've got a 15 year old running, you know, multiple people down,
[00:40:28] you know, they're.
[00:40:29] Yeah. Well, I also think you're kind of arguing with a little bit of a straw man.
[00:40:32] Is like the, you know, going to going to going to fix it all.
[00:40:35] Yeah, I don't.
[00:40:36] I mean, I think you're arguing with a straw man from you're still mad at 2020.
[00:40:40] That's why we need to totally get rid of punishment.
[00:40:43] But I mean, that's not what anybody's talking about now. Yeah.
[00:40:47] All right. We're going to go to some more community questions now,
[00:40:51] but I've got one here somewhere between once a week and three times per night.
[00:40:56] I'm woken up by shots fired street racing and or loud engines revving.
[00:41:00] If I'm hearing it, I would guess at least 100, if not 300,
[00:41:03] more people are hearing it, too. What do we do about this?
[00:41:09] Yeah, I wish I had a good answer here.
[00:41:12] I mean, again, you guys don't have to say anything.
[00:41:14] Well, I mean, well, I will say, I mean, you know,
[00:41:16] I think traffic calming has has helped in some places.
[00:41:20] I mean, I used to live right on like right on Rainier in southeast Seattle.
[00:41:24] And and I do think that what they did in Columbia City
[00:41:27] to sort of slow down the traffic that goes through there prevented.
[00:41:30] And what we had was a lot of people driving into buildings
[00:41:33] and driving really fast into racing, too,
[00:41:36] but just like really reckless, dangerous driving that was very loud.
[00:41:39] And it did help.
[00:41:40] I'm not saying that, you know, I know the specific solution for your street.
[00:41:44] But but that that does help when you make it harder for people to drive fast.
[00:41:48] Yeah, I mean, this is a again, I think a lot of this stuff
[00:41:52] gets fueled by social media and young kids sort of copy each other on TikTok.
[00:41:57] And we've seen this in other cities like Oakland or or wherever where you have
[00:42:02] these these really dangerous situations that developed of the,
[00:42:05] you know, that the people doing donuts and doing the crazy
[00:42:10] drive with with huge crowds around them.
[00:42:12] People end up getting hit, you know, or whatever.
[00:42:14] I mean, I do wonder if it's indicative of a kind of broader problem
[00:42:20] that sort of came out of the pandemic and that era of our schools being closed
[00:42:25] and our kids, you know, teenage kids and preteen kids
[00:42:29] not really getting the kind of social contact
[00:42:33] and learning that they typically would have gotten for, you know,
[00:42:36] more than a year, you know, almost two years. Yeah.
[00:42:39] That that are lost.
[00:42:40] I know I had teenage kids during during that period,
[00:42:43] and I know it was really, really isolating and rough on them
[00:42:46] and created problems for both of them. So.
[00:42:51] I think we're dealing with the consequences of that stuff now,
[00:42:53] and it's really difficult.
[00:42:54] What about James Dean and rebel without a cause?
[00:42:57] Is that there's no social media back then?
[00:42:59] All right, here's one about that was that was white privilege.
[00:43:03] All right. Traffic safety question here.
[00:43:06] Who needs sidewalks in this part of Seattle?
[00:43:09] Sidewalks are scarce, but we don't seem to miss them much.
[00:43:12] Yes, we need safe walks to school for children.
[00:43:15] This takes us back to our last answer a little bit
[00:43:17] and more speed bumps on the side streets.
[00:43:19] But isn't that all we need?
[00:43:20] Do we really need sidewalks up here in this part of North Seattle?
[00:43:24] Should that be a priority? They're expensive, right?
[00:43:26] Yeah, I mean, the city does.
[00:43:28] Well, to answer that question, I mean, yes,
[00:43:29] I do think North Seattle needs sidewalks in part because
[00:43:33] and this is something that that came up a lot during the conversation
[00:43:36] about the transportation levy.
[00:43:38] You know, if you don't have a sidewalk and you're disabled
[00:43:40] and all of us are going to be at least temporarily disabled
[00:43:43] at some point in our lives, you know, due to an injury or,
[00:43:46] you know, whatever it may be.
[00:43:47] You don't have access to the city.
[00:43:49] You are either, you know, going to be especially
[00:43:51] if you're in a wheelchair with a walker,
[00:43:53] you're going to be in the street with cars
[00:43:55] or you're just not going to be able to navigate the city.
[00:43:59] And so so I do think we need sidewalks.
[00:44:01] There are lower cost types of sidewalks that the city can build
[00:44:05] and they're doing a lot more of that transportation levy.
[00:44:08] They're going to announce a larger version of it tomorrow.
[00:44:11] I think it's going to add and we're recording this on Thursday.
[00:44:15] I think it's going to add about 150 million.
[00:44:17] But, you know, how much of that is going to be sidewalks?
[00:44:20] You know, we'll see right now.
[00:44:22] The original version only funds 250 blocks of sidewalks,
[00:44:25] which is, you know, as advocates said, at that pace,
[00:44:28] it would take us 500 years to provide enough sidewalks
[00:44:32] for the whole city.
[00:44:32] And then, of course, you've got to constantly be repairing them.
[00:44:35] So, yeah, it's an expensive problem.
[00:44:36] I mean, I was not I did not grow up here in Seattle like I moved here in 2002.
[00:44:41] So 22 years ago.
[00:44:42] But as I understand the the the lore, the history of this right,
[00:44:47] isn't this the great betrayal like of annexing north of of 85th to 145th
[00:44:52] back in the whenever it was the 40s or 50s?
[00:44:54] The promise was that North Seattle was going to, you know,
[00:44:58] as part of the annexation was going to end up getting sidewalks
[00:45:00] and and never did. Right.
[00:45:02] And so and so I do think that's that sort of I don't know.
[00:45:06] I you all may have people in our audience may have better understanding of that.
[00:45:11] But that's the story, as I've always, always heard it right now.
[00:45:14] I will say the sidewalks are expensive
[00:45:16] and frankly, they're having trouble maintaining the sidewalks we do have,
[00:45:20] right, which are often in a state of disrepair or, you know,
[00:45:24] cracking big. So so there are, you know, kind of difficult trade offs
[00:45:30] in all of these decisions about where.
[00:45:33] But the Magnolia Bridge crumble. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
[00:45:37] I mean, I did hear some people complaining about the mayor
[00:45:40] not putting enough bridge money into that, though I thought, you know,
[00:45:43] he put a couple hundred million bucks in very heavy on the size that it is.
[00:45:47] I mean, you could definitely make the argument.
[00:45:48] It should just be bigger. Right.
[00:45:50] Well, we got a lot of bridges that are in disrepair,
[00:45:53] not just the Magnolia Bridge of Fremont Bridge needs work.
[00:45:55] And, you know, there's some other bridges that that
[00:45:57] and they're expensive to fix.
[00:45:59] We're going to continue with questions.
[00:46:02] This one, how does closing the King County Juvenile Detention Center address youth?
[00:46:06] So we're circling back to that.
[00:46:07] Address youth that are continually breaking laws,
[00:46:10] sentencing them to home monitoring doesn't sound like it would work,
[00:46:14] especially if the lack of parenting and supervision is the root of the problem.
[00:46:18] Erica C. Barnett, what do you think?
[00:46:20] Yeah, I mean, I don't think right now we are at a point
[00:46:22] where they are going to be closing the youth jail.
[00:46:25] But the alternatives that they are talking about for some kids
[00:46:29] involve going to places called respite homes, which is kind of a weird name.
[00:46:34] But basically where they will be supervised.
[00:46:36] I think there's a question about, you know, will they be locked?
[00:46:38] Will they not be locked?
[00:46:38] Will some parts of it be locked so that kids can't get out?
[00:46:41] So, I mean, I think there was a lot of fervor around
[00:46:45] just completely closing down the jail and doing things like electronic
[00:46:48] home monitoring that have that has gone away,
[00:46:51] because I think there are, you know, practical problems
[00:46:54] when you're talking about kids who are committing violent crimes
[00:46:57] and doing and, you know, and kids who also, you know,
[00:47:00] maybe may not have stable homes to go to.
[00:47:03] And so, you know, jail is seen as a better alternative.
[00:47:06] And so what they're talking about doing now is finding,
[00:47:09] you know, sort of a midway point for those kids, particularly ones that,
[00:47:13] you know, would do worse at home.
[00:47:14] So, you know, I think that's where the conversation is right now.
[00:47:18] I hope that idea is quietly fading away.
[00:47:20] You know, the idea that we're just going to completely and permanently
[00:47:23] shut down the the youth jail facility, because I think the
[00:47:26] the fear has been and I'm not aware of this, this kind of respite.
[00:47:31] You should read public law.
[00:47:32] Yeah, I should read it more closely, apparently.
[00:47:35] But, you know, the fear has always been that
[00:47:39] when you have a juvenile offender who say committed a homicide
[00:47:42] and we're going to shut down the youth jail, what are you going to do?
[00:47:44] You're going to end up housing. You're not going to let them go.
[00:47:46] You're going to house them with the adult population,
[00:47:48] which I think is a really terrible idea. Right.
[00:47:51] And well, then they age out and that's where they go.
[00:47:54] Yeah. Well, right.
[00:47:55] And so I hope, Erica, that you're right and that they're kind of backing off
[00:47:59] some of the some of the more, you know, the the the sillier aspects of this.
[00:48:03] But I also will say this like, I don't think.
[00:48:07] I think we do a terrible job here in Seattle and King County
[00:48:11] in utilizing time when people do go to jail.
[00:48:14] Where are the, you know, reentry programs?
[00:48:18] Where are the efforts to actually use that time
[00:48:20] to address people's underlying conditions?
[00:48:22] You know, there's a real lack of services
[00:48:27] and efforts within the jail structure right now that I think is a terrible,
[00:48:33] almost unconscionable missed opportunity to try to
[00:48:37] to try to actually do something productive and help people while they are.
[00:48:42] We had a couple of follow ups also on the question of prostitution.
[00:48:45] This one, if you decriminalize prostitution,
[00:48:48] would this somehow decrease exploitation, meaning pimps?
[00:48:53] So would you change that equation if you decriminalize prostitution?
[00:48:57] Is that part of the idea?
[00:48:58] I think only if they did it right.
[00:49:00] I don't think you can just say, OK, we're going to.
[00:49:03] You know, eliminate enforcement or wipe out the law
[00:49:06] and just let things go on as a, you know, in a kind of state of nature.
[00:49:10] Then I think you will get more exploitation and pimps
[00:49:13] and enforcement and violence around around this kind of stuff.
[00:49:16] And I think that's to some extent
[00:49:18] what has happened over on Aurora in recent years.
[00:49:22] And I do think if you're going to decriminalize,
[00:49:24] which I'm not opposed to as an idea,
[00:49:28] you've got to put the support systems in place, which as Erica,
[00:49:31] as you say, I think absolutely correctly,
[00:49:34] that takes commitment and resources and creative thinking about policy.
[00:49:38] And, you know, you got to put your money where your mouth is.
[00:49:41] And right now that doesn't seem even remotely likely to happen anytime soon.
[00:49:46] Just real quickly with decriminalization,
[00:49:49] I mean, I agree with everything you said, but also,
[00:49:52] you know, decriminalization never solves the problem completely
[00:49:55] because there's always a black market for everything.
[00:49:57] I mean, if you look at marijuana, right, we decriminalized it
[00:50:00] and made it the most expensive in the entire country.
[00:50:03] And so now if you want to deal, you go online.
[00:50:06] Oh, that's that's not but that's legalization and regulation
[00:50:09] and regulation. But I mean, same same general concept.
[00:50:12] There is still a black market for weed.
[00:50:14] And and, you know, maybe it's because we didn't get the balance right
[00:50:18] that it's so large.
[00:50:19] But I mean, it is it is very hard to predict exactly what's going to happen
[00:50:22] when you decriminalize something or legalize it.
[00:50:24] I know that when America criminalized prostitution,
[00:50:27] because we got anti vice reform in the late 19th century.
[00:50:30] And before that, prostitution was more of a female owned
[00:50:34] and operated business.
[00:50:35] And the criminalization of it caused it to go underground
[00:50:37] and into the hands of organized crime, according to Ruth Rosen
[00:50:41] in the book The Lost Sisterhood.
[00:50:43] Anyway, throwing out a little bit of US history there.
[00:50:46] But but the question is, if you went in the opposite direction,
[00:50:49] would it actually improve things?
[00:50:51] It's not exactly clear.
[00:50:53] But it is one of those examples of like well-meaning
[00:50:56] legislation actually making things considerably worse
[00:50:59] for the for the women involved.
[00:51:00] Like it made it a lot worse.
[00:51:01] So it just seems like one of those issues.
[00:51:03] Anything you do, it's a bad situation.
[00:51:05] Almost anything you do is well, but you're talking about
[00:51:08] like a patronizing, protect the women type of legislation.
[00:51:13] So no, no, no, decriminalization isn't really.
[00:51:15] I mean, that's the intent.
[00:51:17] Yeah, but I'm saying I don't think that they're analogous.
[00:51:19] I don't think that the decriminalization is analogous to
[00:51:22] making prostitution illegal.
[00:51:24] I don't think it's just the same pendulum swinging back and forth.
[00:51:26] No, they're not.
[00:51:27] I'm saying I'm saying in the early part of the 19th century,
[00:51:29] it wasn't enforced in America.
[00:51:31] So anyway, here's another one.
[00:51:33] You talked about the Nordic model.
[00:51:35] I know nothing of this.
[00:51:36] What are countries in Europe doing regarding prostitution?
[00:51:38] I mentioned that just because the Nordic model, as I understand it,
[00:51:42] refers to, you know, prosecuting Johns and not prostitutes.
[00:51:47] And that's what has been tried in countries like,
[00:51:50] I don't know, Norway.
[00:51:52] I think I think that the idea is rather than looking at the
[00:51:56] women who are engaging in prostitution to sort of criminals themselves,
[00:51:59] right, it's to see them as being sort of victims
[00:52:03] or exploited by a system, right.
[00:52:04] And that and that by focusing on the Johns who are the ones
[00:52:08] who are paying them, who kind of are making use of this sort of
[00:52:11] in this exploitative way of the service, it's a it's a it's a more
[00:52:16] fair way of getting at people that have more culpability or.
[00:52:21] Yeah, I mean, prostitutes are victims.
[00:52:22] Why would you further victimize them by arresting them?
[00:52:25] Well, I mean, it's part of that.
[00:52:26] But then it's like maybe it made things worse.
[00:52:28] Well, one thing I will just observe from my reporting is,
[00:52:31] you know, as I said earlier, Ann Davidson, the city attorney,
[00:52:35] is prosecuting Johns again and literally taking them to trial,
[00:52:39] which is incredibly expensive.
[00:52:41] And so one thing that defense attorneys tell me is that the Johns,
[00:52:46] like the sex workers themselves, are overwhelmingly men of color.
[00:52:50] And a lot of them don't speak English as a first language.
[00:52:52] And so, you know, you're seeing these cases where you're
[00:52:55] having trials for like a guy who offered sixty dollars for sex.
[00:53:00] I don't think that's a particularly good use of our city attorneys,
[00:53:03] you know, limited resources, our courts, limited resources.
[00:53:07] We've moved away from that model a little bit just because it hasn't
[00:53:10] it hasn't been proven that, you know, that these guys that are out there,
[00:53:13] you know, saying, you know, offering sixty, eighty dollars for sex are
[00:53:17] are really, you know, the root of the problem.
[00:53:19] It's if you remove the demand.
[00:53:21] But you but you can't you will never remove the demand for sex work.
[00:53:24] It's never it's never going to go away.
[00:53:27] Like I said, we can go back to the back page of discussion.
[00:53:30] I think if you kind of know, let's go back there.
[00:53:33] All right. We're going to end on this one.
[00:53:36] This is a good one.
[00:53:37] Tell us something positive.
[00:53:39] What is Seattle?
[00:53:40] We've never had this question.
[00:53:41] I just have to say, tell us something positive.
[00:53:43] What is Seattle doing right that you both agree on?
[00:53:46] Oh, oh, man.
[00:53:48] This is an impossible question.
[00:53:49] Yeah, yeah, there's no there's no right.
[00:53:51] There's no answer to that.
[00:53:52] What is Seattle doing right?
[00:53:53] I mean, right now.
[00:53:58] You've really caught us flat footed.
[00:54:00] Yeah. Look, I think there's a there's a push afoot to try to.
[00:54:06] And look, Tammy Morales is.
[00:54:09] Misfire law, I think, kind of fits in this.
[00:54:11] But I think there really is a push and significant momentum behind.
[00:54:17] Dealing with eliminating some of the regulatory
[00:54:20] and structural roadblocks, actually building housing in the city of Seattle.
[00:54:23] I actually you know, there's a push to get rid of design review,
[00:54:26] which is a sort of onerous process where you've got to go before these.
[00:54:31] We've argued we've we've we've we've ranted about this on
[00:54:34] on the podcast before, which adds all this time and cost.
[00:54:37] And these architects sort of who think they're Jane Jacobs
[00:54:40] sort of come in and tell you, you've got to like change
[00:54:43] the color of the bricks over here or whatever, you know.
[00:54:45] And and it just ends up making things a lot more bureaucratic
[00:54:49] and taking longer and a lot more expensive.
[00:54:50] So I think there is some push to try to streamline some of that stuff.
[00:54:53] And I think we would both agree that that would be a good thing.
[00:54:56] I think that's true.
[00:54:56] I will say Dan Strauss wanted to add design review
[00:54:59] and to to affordable housing in his in his plan.
[00:55:03] Yeah, I mean, I think the fact that so the comprehensive plan,
[00:55:07] which is like the big planning document that guides, you know,
[00:55:10] housing development and transportation in the city for 20 years.
[00:55:13] I think that there has been so it came out.
[00:55:16] I've been pretty critical of it, you know, on my side.
[00:55:19] I am like a density radical.
[00:55:22] And so, I mean, I'm from Houston, you guys, I can't help it.
[00:55:25] So real zoning, which has no zoning free for all.
[00:55:28] Yeah. So so, you know, I mean, I think there's been a lot of pushback
[00:55:32] on the version that Bruce Harrell and announced to, you know,
[00:55:37] add a little more density inside of neighborhood centers and, you know,
[00:55:41] and and just a little bit not so much making everybody live on
[00:55:45] directly on Aurora and directly on Rainier, like people who rent,
[00:55:48] like me, who can't afford to buy a house in the city of Seattle
[00:55:52] and sort of letting, you know, renters a little bit deeper into neighborhoods.
[00:55:56] I think there's a lot of momentum on that, and I think that's a good thing.
[00:55:59] I don't know how friendly of a crowd I am in for that perspective.
[00:56:04] But, you know, but yeah, but I think that's and I think the
[00:56:07] the fact that the comprehensive plan, even, you know, the version
[00:56:10] that came out is sort of gesturing towards all that is so different
[00:56:14] than where we were even in Ed Murray's administration when his
[00:56:17] his density plan got leaked and he had to walk it back immediately.
[00:56:22] The the the single family zoning stuff. Yeah.
[00:56:25] I actually am hearing a few noises out of the council that make me think
[00:56:29] there's there's more sympathy for adding a little more density
[00:56:33] into the comp plan from the mayor's proposal than, you know,
[00:56:37] then I would have I would have guessed going in.
[00:56:39] And so I do agree with you.
[00:56:41] I think that's a that's a good thing.
[00:56:42] I think they should, you know, add a little more opportunity for for.
[00:56:48] Oh, to be clear, I think they should add a lot more. Right.
[00:56:50] Right. I know you do.
[00:56:51] I know. And I will say this because I've tweeted this out
[00:56:54] when the when the original comp plan mayor's proposal came out.
[00:56:58] I mean, there was a lot of kind of gnashing of teeth
[00:57:01] and wailing from folks on the left saying, oh, we're doomed
[00:57:04] to become San Francisco, right?
[00:57:06] Because now we're not going to be able to build enough housing
[00:57:09] and housing prices are going to soar to these exorbitant levels
[00:57:11] even beyond well beyond where they are now.
[00:57:14] And and I pointed out like, you know what?
[00:57:16] San Francisco, we should, you know, if you're pro density,
[00:57:20] we should aspire to becoming San Francisco because they're way more dense than Seattle.
[00:57:25] I mean, San Francisco has 18000 some people per square mile.
[00:57:29] We're at eight thousand something.
[00:57:31] So there's a long way to go because of your yard.
[00:57:35] And what that says to me is that there is substantial opportunity,
[00:57:39] low hanging fruit for us to add more housing and and growth
[00:57:42] to help deal with both the growth of the city, the people coming in,
[00:57:47] as well as to try to hold the line on housing.
[00:57:50] They both agree on density.
[00:57:51] That's a great place to end.
[00:57:53] That's it for another edition.
[00:57:55] That's it for another edition of Seattle Nice.
[00:57:57] She's Erica C.
[00:57:58] Barnett. He's Sandeep Kashuk.
[00:58:00] I'm David Hyde. Our editor is Quinn Waller.
[00:58:03] And thanks so much to everyone here at the Haller Lake Community Club.
[00:58:12] Time.