Is Seattle's downtown really recovering?

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome into the latest edition of Seattle Nice. I'm David Hyde here as always

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: with Ace reporter and editor of Publico, Erica C. Barnett. Hi Erica.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello. I don't know what to do when you're not being slightly sarcastic or maybe you

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: were. How do you know I'm not? And Seattle dancer

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: James Carville without the Louisiana accent and fewer signs of early onset dementia. Political

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: consultant Sandeep Kaushik. Yeah, hey, I did grow up in the border south. So you know,

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: that's Carville adjacent. The raging, the raging Kaushik. The raging Virginia. The

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: raging Virginia. Okay. This week is Seattle really facing a budget crisis? We're not

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: going to talk about that. But Sandeep, I want to ask you a question about it because

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you're offering some provocative hints earlier that you may know something about it.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And so perhaps we'll talk about it in future weeks. But first, is downtown Seattle

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: recovering? That was the goal of Mayor Bruce Harrell's activation plan. And we're basically

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: one year in right, Erica? And so I was looking at some headlines earlier. Seattle's

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: downtown activation plan is a roaring success, city leaders say was one of them. What is your

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_02]: sense of where we are now? I mean, my sense is that we're about where I would expect to be

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: given that COVID, you know, has a long tail and we are recovering from it like every other

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_02]: city. The mayor's office, you know, he's, he's starting kind of reelection campaign style

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_02]: rhetoric and talking points. And, you know, and they rolled out, they had this press

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_02]: conference yesterday that unfortunately, they apparently sent my notice to publicola.org,

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02]: an address that does not exist. So not a joke. And so I wasn't there. But, but I read the

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_02]: materials about sort of what the progress has been on all these points in the downtown activation

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: plan. And, you know, I got to say, I mean, it's, it's a little bit weak sauce, you know,

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_02]: they're saying that violent crime is down 1.4% property crime overall is down 27.8%.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, they're taking credit for overdoses citywide being down and saying that the downtown

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: activation plan somehow, you know, caused or was related to that. I'm not saying that,

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, activating downtown and painting murals and, you know, doing trash cleanup,

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, etc is not, you know, those are those are all perfectly fine strategies.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, I think there's just a lot of like correlation causation problems in here.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Also, I mean, one of the things that they're bragging about in this, in this announcement

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: is just straight up the number of arrests they've done, which I don't think you can say

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: we've done 300 more arrests. And then that that's it. You know, you have to say and

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: that caused, you know, 200 people to get into treatment that caused you know, that had a

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: positive impact in some way. So I think there is just kind of a mishmash of statistics that

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_02]: they've got that summer, summer citywide summer downtown. And I don't know that they paint a

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: super coherent picture of downtown in recovery because of the actions of Mayor Harrell.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Sonia Kashuk, Erica didn't mention pickleball courts I noticed, which seems like a pretty big

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: oversight in terms of downtown recovery. But seriously, that isn't part of it. But

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_00]: is it? Is it? Are we are we doing pickleball downtown? There's one that there's one at

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: fifth and Denny. Oh, my God. There you go. That's part of it. Look at. But I'm so

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: clueless. I have no idea that that. Yeah. Well, there you go. Why are we only doing

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_02]: here's my question. Why are we? Well, I will say they bragged about they bragged about having

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_02]: so in the in the press materials is hilarious like you know, you go through and there's

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: like little graphics for everything. They bragged about having there's a little

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: roll of toilet paper and it says one new public restroom. And this is like

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: their big talking point about how great the waterfront is. One pickleball court

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and one restroom. We are now one roll of toilet paper. Our work here is done. Our

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: All right. But back to this, the headline, I think this is King five Seattle's

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: downtown activation plan is a roaring success. One year later, city leaders say.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think? Well, roaring success. I'm having a hard time like like

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: endorsing that sentiment. I mean, look, my sort of personal or anecdotal sense of

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: like the state of downtown. I spend a fair amount of time downtown. My office, as

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: we've talked about before, is in Pioneer Square, is that it's pretty blah right now. Right? I mean,

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: it is look, I do think it is better than it was if you compare what downtown felt like when

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_00]: the mayor came into office in 2021 versus how it is now there. It clearly feels better

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_00]: walking down the street than it did then. There's more activity. There's more vibrancy,

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_00]: more people. Maybe there is kind of less visible or issues or street disorder or stuff like that.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you look at the downtown Seattle Association stats, like the number of

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_00]: visitors downtown has been inching back up to Erica's point. It's a sort of slow

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: return, but there has been signs of progress there. But we're still only like,

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: 62% of where we were pre pandemic. Tourism has come back like gangbusters, but that's seasonal.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Right? So during the cruise ship season and in the summers now that we have cruise ships again,

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: we are getting a lot of tourists. So there are some bright spots here, but overall it doesn't

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_00]: feel as nearly as vibrant or as alive or as crowded as it did pre pandemic.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it depends on where you are downtown too. If you're out around West Lake and in the

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: shopping area at certain times, particularly on the weekends, it can feel quite crowded and

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_02]: quite like it did previously. Pioneer Square is a little different. It's a little deader.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I work down there too. There's not as much activity, but there's certainly more. I work

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_02]: on the street that they are improving for pedestrian access to the massive freeway

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_02]: that it dead ends into, but they have improved South Washington Street in a way that I think is

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: really cool. I think a lot more streets should be more pedestrianized, but we're not seeing

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: foot traffic come back. In part, I think that is because of the shitty waterfront design on

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: the South End, but that is a topic for another podcast hopefully.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: A part of this, the number of people who came into work in downtown offices is 14%

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_01]: over the last year, but still I'm not looking at the raw number here. What about that piece

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: about it when it comes to office workers? Yeah, there's been an improvement. There's

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_00]: been some comeback, but look at the state of commercial real estate in the city right now.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: The other headlines we've seen in the last few weeks are like big downtown buildings are

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: selling at fire sale prices right now. Smith Tower just sold. They didn't announce the

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_00]: selling price, but they said it was at a bargain price. There's the perennial talk of

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: we've got to convert some of these buildings from office into residential though. How much

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_00]: that is actually happening seems pretty minimal at this point. But yeah, we're seeing

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: commercial real estate. There's a glut of office space right now and vacancy rates in office

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: buildings have creeped up quite high. So there's been some recovery, sure, but we're

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: not in a great place by any means. I mean, we're certainly not where we were pre-pandemic

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: when people were commuting in downtown five days a week. We're not even remotely close to

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: that, really. Yeah. I've said this before. I think as long as companies allow people to

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_02]: choose the thing that works best for them, they're going to choose to work at home,

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: particularly people who have commutes that aren't readily transit accessible that are far

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: away. And that is just a fact. When you look at the success of downtown and define it

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: entirely as bringing office workers back to their cubicles, A, that's pretty depressing

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's like yet another lesson to the pandemic that we have already forgetting. But B, it's not

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: going to be enough. The problem with downtown Seattle when I moved here certainly 20 years ago

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: was that it shut up at five o'clock in the evening and it was just tumbleweeds at night.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I am glad that there is still talk of actually allowing or enabling more people to move

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: downtown. I saw that the building that you were talking about, Sundeep, is the Vance Building,

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: which used to be sort of the home to all the lefty non-profits. Totally. It still is. And

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a great building. Yeah. And it's a great building. I mean, it would be super cool if it

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: became housing. I would love to see that. I mean, I'd love to live in the Vance Building.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure it's not going to be at my price range. But that is if that doesn't happen.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: You just want all the residual progressive vibes. Yeah, man. Transportation choices,

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: pollution. As you cook your fuse. Sightline Institute. Yeah, they're all there. I mean,

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: no, no, no. Believe me, the Vance Building has been kind of ground zero for

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: progressive activism in... Oh yeah, fuse. Right. No, there's just so many. I've been

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_02]: there so many times. But the thing is bringing back workers downtown, I don't know. 14% is

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_02]: not very much, it seems to me. And I don't know that we're ever going to get to the

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: level that it was before without forcing people to do things that they don't want to do and that

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_02]: require them to do very long unpaid commutes. And people don't want doing that now that they've

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_00]: seen that they don't have to. One way I would say that we should be measuring

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_00]: success, how much success has the mayor's downtown revitalization plan had, is to measure

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: it by what they were kind of promising at the outset with it. And one of the things

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: they really said when they rolled this plan out probably more than a year ago now,

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_00]: closer to two years ago when they started talking about it, was that they really wanted

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: to reimagine downtown, to Erika's point, not as simply a place people commuted to come to work,

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: but as this arts and cultural sort of standalone center. Right? That was a magnet drawing

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: people from across the region who were coming downtown not to go to their job, but to go

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_00]: some event or stuff like that. I measured by that standard. Look, I think there's been

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: some good stuff. Like, yes, they're doing stuff with murals and the building across my street

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: in Pioneer Square. They just put up these new murals over there and they're kind of nice.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's been some stuff like that. But I don't think downtown has been reimagined

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_00]: as some kind of vibrant arts and cultural hub yet anyway. I mean, I think we've got a ways

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: to go on that front. Yeah, I mean, I'm looking at the old press materials and we're going to have

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: all kinds of food vendors. And I remember you were joking about pickleball courts,

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_02]: but there are going to be pickleball courts in Pioneer Square. There is one. There is one.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God. Not in Pioneer Square, but what we were just talking about. Yeah,

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02]: there's one way up north, but we're going to revitalize Pioneer Square with pickleball.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And there are going to be all kinds of arts activations. You could walk around drinking.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh boy. And it was like, you know, it was food and arts and all this stuff. And yeah,

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_02]: now it's like, you know what? We did 300 more arrests. Like, okay. Well, I don't know that

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: arrests revitalize downtown or any area on their own. I mean, if you go to downtown Portland,

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: they still have the areas where you'll have a kind of, you know, a mass of food trucks.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: We've never. Well, they just have a culture of that that we've just never made.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no reason we couldn't have tried to replicate some of that.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Totally. Totally. Totally. We should have, but you know, people, I mean, it's just,

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_02]: this is a very reactionary reactive city that, you know, that sort of is afraid to do things,

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, and says, oh, well, we're different than that place. We're different

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: from that place. We can't do that. I'm curious. And maybe we could look

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: this up for next episode. Just how, you know, since you bring up Portland,

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: how Seattle's recovery efforts compared to other downtowns, I do see office visit recovery here

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: listed in select cities. Miami is at 90% of where they were in 2019. San Francisco only at 52%.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not really sure where Seattle is. And plus, you know, as you all are saying,

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_01]: office visits are really only one metric. But I did want to ask a follow up question

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: to that because we had an op ed in the Seattle Times in March, I think basically

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_01]: saying that the city needs to bring workers back, that that's part of downtown recovery.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know, Erica, there's been a lot of talk about that. So where is the city in terms of

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: bringing city workers back? And what do you think that has to do with downtown recovery?

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. So we're talking about office workers. So I think that is really important to say

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: upfront. So I have asked the city how many actual office workers downtown they have because

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: it is not as many as the number that gets bandied about which is in the 13,000 range. Because I

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02]: mean, when when you hear that number, when you hear a very high number, it sounds like it's

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: really impacting downtown, but most of those people are either cops or city light workers.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So you know, it's a smaller subset. That subset has to be back at the office three days

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: a week now for the executive departments and for the very much smaller legislative department.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It's four days a week. And there is, you know, a push to force all the executive department

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: office workers back four days a week as well. I suspect that that will eventually happen.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But I just I just don't see it making this massive impact. I mean, you know,

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_02]: there's there's the argument that, you know, people that the city needs to lead by example,

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and that other, you know, companies follow whatever the city does, which I just think is,

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, kind of not based on anything. But yeah, there's definitely a push to

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: require everybody to be downtown that can be. I do think there's something to the setting an

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: example thing, right? I mean, the mayor obviously wants to see downtown come back. I think he

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: understands that having a vital and vibrant downtown is key to the the overall economic

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: health and vibrancy of the city. Certainly the chamber polls on this every six months

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_00]: their index poll. And, you know, when you ask people, is it really important that we have,

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, a vibrant functioning downtown that, you know, the numbers are off the

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: charts. People understand that there's an economic importance to downtown Seattle.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But then, you know, when the mayor made an announcement, you know, with some companies

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: standing behind him a few weeks ago that he's going to bring city workers back up from two

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: days a week to three days a week. You know, I think he got some criticism for that as being

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: an underwhelming move and not setting the greatest example. Certainly Council Member Rivera

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: had been advocating that city workers should come back four days a week, not three days

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_00]: a week, and was disappointed that, you know, the mayor didn't go further on that. And

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's some merit there to talk about that. Yeah, there are a lot of people that have

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: used to this sort of post pandemic world where they don't have to come into work anymore. But

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: is that the best thing for the functioning of government and efficiency? Is it setting

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_02]: the example that we'll get like sort of other companies? Yeah, I just I think and I think that,

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, me writing about a microcosm of it is one thing. But I mean, there have been

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: lots of studies done. I mean, the pandemic has been with us for four years now, more than

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and, you know, I mean, it is, you know, it's kind of a big like for some people,

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: it works way better to be at home. And for some people, it's really good to be in the office,

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: there are different types of people. For me personally, I work best from home and not in

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: a busy office with lots of distractions. I get a lot more done. That is a lot of people

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and particularly, you know, people with maybe tech jobs. I talked to people during the pandemic

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: who were responding to customer service calls for Seattle Public Utilities from home and they

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_02]: said it was, you know, not only the people I talked to at SPU said it was not only much

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_02]: easier to get their jobs done while you know also being able to have more of a life outside

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: of work because they didn't have these long commutes anymore. But you know, the city

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: was no longer set up for them to be, you know, in a big cube farm. It was very

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: distracting and they just liked it better. And you know, when you're talking about people

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: who are not like rich tech workers, you're talking about people who are living, you know,

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_02]: by and large way out in the suburbs. And so, you know, I mean, they prefer not to have again

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: this like unpaid two hours or more every single day that they have to just be in their cars

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: getting to a cubicle to do the same job they could do at home. Sure. But if your

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: preeminent goal is to get downtown going again. Well, I don't think that should be

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_02]: the preeminent goal of government to be clear of the city of Seattle government for the

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_02]: entire city of Seattle. I don't think the preeminent goal should be let's, you know,

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_00]: make people buy food at lunch. Well, I think four days a week of coming to work is not is

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: not I mean, given that not very long ago, it's five days a week, four days a week does not seem

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: so, you know, draconian to me. I mean, that that seems like a reasonable place to end up

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: in a post pandemic world. But anyway, sounds like we're going to settle on three days a

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: week. And I do think if that's where we're settling that as an implication for how much

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: downtown comes back and just to something that we were talking about before comparison

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: other cities, I just as we were talking, looked up a study here from the University of

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Toronto School of Cities where they were looking at downtown recovery rankings,

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_00]: comparing cities based on cell phone data, mobile phone data. And this is from October

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: of 2023. So it's about a year out of date. But of the 66 cities that they rank here,

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Seattle is down at number 63. Right? We are down at the bottom. We're at 57% of the,

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, activity that we were in 2019. You know, Las Vegas is actually above 100%. And

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, Miami is at 92%. Right? Some of these cities that are doing much, much better than

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: we are where according to this metric, actually doing worse than Portland is which

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: surprises. We were doing worse almost a year ago. Yeah, we were.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think that like, you know, I mean, and I've mentioned this before, but I think that

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_02]: there is a perennial debate over downtown versus the neighborhoods. Every mayor seems

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: obsessed with downtown city council, you know, occasionally, you know, will bring up the fact

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_02]: that we have a very much larger city than just downtown. And when you're talking about

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_02]: activity, I mean, I think when we just focus in on downtown to the explosion of other

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: neighborhoods, you are ignoring all the money that's getting spent in the neighborhoods,

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: because people are now able to, you know, walk to their neighborhood coffee shop at lunch,

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: walk to their neighborhood restaurant and spend money closer to where they live.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I mean, I agree. I mean, I've answered those chamber polls. I think that even though

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm probably not supposed to, you know, I think down to having a vibrant downtown is

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: important to economic revitalization. I just don't think it's the only thing. And I think we look

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: at it in exclusion of other parts of the city that, you know, that also need revitalization

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and that are, you know, in some ways benefited from the pandemic, you know, economically,

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: because people were no longer leaving those neighborhoods, you know, in the morning and

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: coming back at night. There was a time when it wasn't quite so much of, you know, the sort

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_02]: of perceived wisdom that the most important thing, you know, on the planet is downtown.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And there was a debate over this. I feel like right now there's really not everybody just kind

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_02]: of agrees that we don't need to look at the other neighborhoods. And I think that's, you know,

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: it's, it's trying not to use the word small minded, but it is a focus on one area of town

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: to the exclusion of all the others. Also, Sunday, like just, I'm stuck on your earlier

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: point about if the perennial goal is a revitalized downtown. I mean, I agree with you and Erica,

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that's definitely true. But I was thinking just about those moments during the pandemic where

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: people were saying, oh, you know, if people don't return to their offices, there's going

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: to be less traffic, less commuting overall, less fossil fuel consumption, a better work life

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_01]: balance. Maybe we can retain some of these elements of the pandemic. And so maybe three

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: days a week seems like a decent way of thinking about that balance, you know, rather than just

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: saying all the everybody's got to return five days a week in terms of how people live and

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, there's going to be consequences in terms of downtown recovery. But, you know,

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: why can't this be a moment of transition where Seattle's reimagining a future where

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: people only do work three days a week and the rest of the city kind of needs to adjust?

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, to be clear, I do mean work downtown. I mean, sorry.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. Working downtown three days a week and the big real estate interests that invested

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe too heavily in downtown and supported the idea of two billion dollar convention centers

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and stuff like that. Maybe they're the ones who should now have to adjust because

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_01]: most people that live and work in Seattle would are pretty happy with this three day a

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: week in the office, I should say, part of week, although a three day work week would be great,

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: too. Well, yeah. To your question, David, I do think the pandemic has engendered

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_00]: of, let me use the word, a reckoning on multiple fronts, including on this one about how

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: best to do kind of work life balance and how much priority should downtown take in the economic

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: life of the city. I do think all of those questions were created by the massive changes

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_00]: that the pandemic engendered and we're right now trying to figure it out. And that's the

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_00]: debate right now. Is it three days a week? The right answer is four days a week. I don't

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: think we're going back to five days a week. I don't think we're ever getting back to

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: exactly what it was like pre pandemic, but I do think how we answer those questions has profound

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: implications. And I mean, all of the kind of progressive virtue in Seattle,

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I've made this argument in the past, has floated on a kind of seemingly infinite sea

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: of new money. It's all the kind of economic vibrancy and tech money that's allowed us to

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: expand. It's also created a bunch of problems too, right? But it's also created a bunch of

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: money and revenue. And for me, moving here from a city in decline, Cleveland and coming to Seattle

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: was like night and day, how different it felt to a city that was growing and economically

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: turning into a global powerhouse compared to one that had been 100 years ago and was dying

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think some of these questions implicate, are we going to be able to sustain that? Right? What

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_00]: if we make the wrong decisions and our economy kind of sputters? It's not going to die, but

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: it doesn't sort of sputter along in some tepid way. And maybe we don't have the same kind of

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: vibrancy that we had before. Right? That's the question. Can I say though,

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: among the people who work from home that I have talked to, including tons and tons of people

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_02]: at the city, not one wants this. So the workers who work from home do not want this. If they

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02]: wanted it, they could come into work now and a lot of people do. I mean, I know also people

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that choose to come in five days a week. So we really are talking about forcing people to do

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_02]: something they don't want to do. And I think in the macro vibrancy debate, just kind of

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: saying, well, we can just move these people around like ponds and put them in downtown

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: rather than where they are in their neighborhoods. And that will solve everything and bring back

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_02]: vibrancy that we miss. It just really misses the fact that we're talking about people and

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02]: their choices and their lives. And I work a lot, but I don't think work is everything.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think one of the things that pandemic did cause a reckoning on was like, hey,

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I am not my job. And I think a lot of people really started to think about that and think

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_02]: about work-life balance in a very different way. And so when we're talking about forcing

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_02]: people to do something they very much do not want to do, I think that it is important to

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: look at what that means as an employer. You're saying that the thing they think is in their

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_02]: best interest and the thing they prefer is the thing that they will no longer be able to do,

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_02]: whether it's for like these revitalization efforts or just because you want to have them

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: under your thumb more. People are going to resist that and they don't like it.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that does have to be, I mean, I don't think we have to always take

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_02]: the view of the bosses and say, well, it doesn't matter. They have to get downtown because they've,

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02]: as I said, like they've got to start going out at lunch. They've got to start spending

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: their paychecks after they commute into the city. I think that the workers actually should

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: get a say and I'm sorry, Cindy, if you think that makes me sound like the progressive left,

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_02]: but I am the progressive left on this. Absolutely. If I had to work in an office every day,

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what I would do. I was terrible at that and I'm good at working from home and I'm

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: not the only person that feels that way. I'm just privileged that I don't have a boss telling

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: me what to do. I was going crazy during the pandemic at home, like between March and by August

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: of 2020, I started coming back to my office like back when Pioneer Square really was the

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_00]: zombie apocalypse and I was the only person in the office because I needed it. Psychologically,

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_00]: it's much better for me to be in an office so maybe that's coloring my perceptions,

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: but I just don't think four days a week is some- That's almost all the days.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: There are only five. There's three other days during the week when you don't have to be-

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, so you're saying workers, you still have your weekend?

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_00]: You have it. Yeah. Well, you're at home for- Anyway.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I do think though, Erika, not progressive, I was thinking King of Bhutan would be a better

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: description. Bhutan has this happiness index. Bhutan has a happiness index as an alternative to-

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the happiest place on earth.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Honestly, Erika's really, it's not just about even from the boss's perspective,

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: having workers that are despondent because they're now, they learn what work-life balance

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: look like under three days a week if that benefited them. Now suddenly you're taking

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that worker benefit away and the ones that don't like it might be really, really unhappy.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not good for their productivity or for the city overall, but it seems like

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: people are like, well, as Erika made the joke, sorry, you've got to come down to town

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and have lunch, create economic activity for us. I mean, why shouldn't the businesses that are

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: running restaurants be the ones that have to adjust? That's a decent way of balancing

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: things out. God, I sound like such a hippie here, but this is based on personal experience.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the city is run by people who either have one or two. Look, this is not

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: based on data. This is my perception, okay? But I think the city is run by two kinds of

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_02]: gossip. I'm going to be a gossip all the time if they are not directly under their eye.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that some of them are. Some of them are. That's fine. That's fine.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like they'd be slacking off at work and closing their tabs. The second you walk by,

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02]: they just feel like they're under surveillance. But the other type is the people like

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Sandeep who just desperately want to be in the office and are extroverts,

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm like, I gossip all the time. I gossip with people all the time. I work from home.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I just think, and some people are in between. They like a little bit of both. And that's probably

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02]: where I actually am. But I also think the city is just run by people who can't conceive

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_02]: of the idea of workers doing their work without constant supervision and workers

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: doing better work when they're not around people all the time.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I think also what seems to happen in organizations may be that there's a lot of managers who really,

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: what the pandemic exposes, they don't really do anything other than convene meetings in person.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And so once the workers are out of the office, it really exposed the fact that they were

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: unnecessary. But of course, managers don't fire themselves very often or downsize themselves.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe, anyway, we can save a lot more money by looking at that.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Get rid of the middle managers.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I have helped derail the conversation towards the end here.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, toward utopianism. I love it.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So one question I did have, though, it's been a year and a half since Bruce Harrell took office.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It took him like months to come up with this plan. And I remember

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: both of you kind of commenting that there seemed to be some foot dragging in just coming

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01]: up with plans. It's like there'd be a big announcement and the announcement would be in a

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: few months, we're going to have a plan. When Harrell is up for reelection, is this a fair metric?

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he came into office in the beginning of 2022. Isn't that what we should judge him

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: by rather than saying, well, it's one year since we came up with a plan. It seems like

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit of an artificial baseline thoughts. Look, at the end of the day,

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I've said this before, I think mayors get judged by how people perceive the state of

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: city to be at the time that they're running for reelection. And so, as I said earlier,

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_00]: right now, the city feels kind of meh sort of middling. It's not horrible, but it's also

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_00]: not great. I mean, we talked about Pioneer Square isn't really all that vibrant right

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_00]: now and they're still kind of boarded up storefronts. And there's not a lot of foot

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_02]: traffic around my office or in the square. But look at Capitol Hill, look at other

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: neighborhoods and I actually think we have seen a lot of improvement in other neighborhoods that

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_01]: are less high profile. Ballard never declined, unfortunately.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I was at Pike Place Market recently and I think this is a tourism thing, right?

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like packed. But in the summer, tourism really has come back in this huge way

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: in Seattle where we are basically almost where we were at pre pandemic, if not all the way back.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: There's cruise assholes constantly almost hitting me as I'm trying to run along the

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: waterfront. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes the cruise

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_00]: assholes outnumber the actual residents of the city in various parts of town. But hey,

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: it's either cruise assholes or office workers. I'm fine with the cruise assholes. Whatever.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad that tourism is back. I think it was predictable.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're right, Cindy, but I think people do vote on vibes. There's an interesting website

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: called heropromises.com. I have not checked their data, but they sort of look at things

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that Harold has said he will do and whether he has done them. And you can look at that,

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_02]: take it with whatever grain of salt you want. It's obviously not a Harold fan.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think on this downtown activation stuff, yeah, it's just going back to that. The stuff

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that was promised was like we're going to have a Mercado of Latino businesses downtown and

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_02]: we're going to have an arts and entertainment district linked by the streetcar, which obviously

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_02]: is not happening. And then there's a lot of other stuff that was already in the works

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_02]: at the time. So I don't know. I mean, it's clear that this downtown activation plan

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: has not really done a whole lot except for the work that already was going to be happening on

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_02]: the waterfront. But will people judge him by that? No, I mean, they're going to judge him

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_02]: by, like Sandeep said, and to put it more succinctly, vibes. And I don't know if the

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: vibes are good for the mayor or not. I don't have access to polls that Sandeep is constantly

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: citing. But the city has not dramatically transformed because of any Mayor Harrell

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_00]: initiatives that I'm aware of. One thing I will just say that I haven't brought up,

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_00]: but I know the mayor has a particular interest in Westlake and wanting to see that become

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_00]: more vibrant and hard to know to the city as well. That's something that the mayors talked

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_00]: about now for a few years. And I have heard some chatter coming from city sources that I cannot

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_00]: name, that there are potentially some announcements coming on that front in the relatively near

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: future. So he's got time between now and next November, right? More than a year, but

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_00]: when he's on the ballot for his reelection. And things may feel very different six months

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_02]: or 12 months from now. One quick thing that we didn't mention is that the revitalization

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and the downtown activation plan does include a heavy emphasis on homeless sweeps downtown.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And he did kind of go back to this metric in his announcement yesterday,

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_02]: or earlier this week rather, that we have done this number of encampment outreach efforts,

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and we've done this many referrals to shelter. And it was a pretty low number. I think it was

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_02]: 200 something. And the fact is, if you're doing sweeps downtown, it is going to make downtown

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: look like there's fewer homeless people, but it does just push the problem elsewhere.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_02]: While the city is talking about budget cuts, I don't think we're going to see

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_02]: major budget increases to the homelessness budget towards actually addressing homelessness

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_02]: with, for example, shelters. And we're about to lose 300 shelter beds in the city. So that

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02]: problem is not going to get better. But again, if you're just emphasizing downtown and you keep

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: sweeping people out of downtown, it might look superficially better, but it's not really

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_00]: addressed. Well, I do think, and you're right to bring up the kind of crime, homelessness,

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: street disorder issue, because I do think that's related to downtown recovery. I don't

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_00]: think you're ever going to, whether you want to reimagine downtown as an arts and cultural

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_00]: world, or whether it's about making it the economic engine and the place where people come

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: to office, whatever your vision of it is, you got to have a certain level of basic,

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_00]: A, public safety, but also where people feel comfortable in those. And they're definitely

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_00]: over the last couple of years, there are a lot of workers that just like working at home

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_00]: better, but there are also a lot of workers who are like, I don't feel good coming downtown

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and don't feel safe or I got hassled by blah, blah, blah. So that's been an issue.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that it's as much of an issue right now as it was a year ago, maybe. But,

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_00]: but you know, it's not like we've solved our street level challenges downtown by any means.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So that continues to be an ongoing thing. And Sunday might maybe that's a good place to end

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: with Erica also bringing up the budget and how much money is going to go towards addressing

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_01]: homelessness and problems with drug addiction, other issues. You said something provocative

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: before the podcast started about whether or not Seattle is really facing a budget crisis.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we have a budget deficit of about $260 million, which sounds enormous. But right now

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm hearing, I'll say this, I think we should come back and do a budget episode and we can

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_00]: talk about some of this more, but I'm hearing a lot of confidence coming out of City Hall right

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00]: now, particularly out of the mayor's office on the seventh floor that no sweat, we're going to

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_00]: be able to deal with this $260 million deficit without deep painful pullbacks and stuff like

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that. There are obviously jumpstart revenues have been coming in at a much higher pace than

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_00]: had been initially anticipated. So, you know, we'll see. We'll see what happens with the,

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, we're going to get in budget in third week of September where the mayor will announce

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: his budget proposal. But right now I'm hearing pretty optimistic noises on that front.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_01]: All right. Well, let's try and return to that next week. That's it for another edition

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_01]: of Seattle Nice. He's Sandeep Kaushik. She's Erica C. Barnett. I'm David Hyde. Our editor

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_01]: is Gwynne Waller and thanks everybody so much for listening.