Is Seattle Ungovernable?

[00:00:00] .

[00:00:01] Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Seattle Nice, the podcast where we usually

[00:00:15] have a moderator, but this week we don't.

[00:00:17] I am Publicola editor and co-founder Erica Barnett and with me is my co-host Sandeep

[00:00:23] Kaushik, political consultant.

[00:00:25] Sandeep, you have suggested that the topic this week should be something along the

[00:00:30] lines of everything is falling apart.

[00:00:32] It's chaos at the city.

[00:00:34] Madness reigns throughout the land, which I think is, you know, I'm going to turn it

[00:00:39] over to you, but I think that's ironic because I thought that according to you,

[00:00:43] the adults are in charge now.

[00:00:44] So what's going on?

[00:00:45] Well, first of all, my point is I think we're seeing issues not just at the city,

[00:00:51] right, but across kind of local government.

[00:00:55] Like, let's look at what's happening at King County Regional Homelessness Authority,

[00:00:58] their CEO search has been kind of a mess, though it looks like they are going to kind

[00:01:04] of get a CEO out of the end of it.

[00:01:06] But I think the future of that organization is very much still up in the air.

[00:01:11] Right. We can look at that Seattle School District where, you know, it's a total

[00:01:16] shit show. Right.

[00:01:17] And they're talking about closing 20 schools.

[00:01:19] And, you know, I think there are probably quite extensive teacher layoffs coming.

[00:01:25] There's parental rebellion that's going on.

[00:01:27] This week, we had the ouster of the Seattle Police Department Chief, Adrian Diaz, that

[00:01:32] just happened. We're recording this on Thursday.

[00:01:34] That just happened yesterday on Wednesday.

[00:01:37] You know, and the police department certainly seems like it's in turmoil and kind

[00:01:41] of a mess. And, you know, on and on, we just had the Sound Transit CEO very

[00:01:46] recently get ousted.

[00:01:47] Right. I mean, we can go on.

[00:01:49] There was a blow up at the City Council this week.

[00:01:51] Right. You know, that we were talking about earlier before we started taping.

[00:01:55] So it just seems to me like everything seems kind of messy and chaotic right now.

[00:02:01] And it raises a question in my mind is, is Seattle and environs like governable

[00:02:08] or, you know, what the what the fuck is going on and and where are we at?

[00:02:13] Right. So that was my my sort of take on this.

[00:02:16] Now your question is like, why is this happening?

[00:02:20] I think that's a longer question.

[00:02:21] And we can get into that.

[00:02:23] Yeah. Let me let me jump in here just on the city stuff.

[00:02:25] I mean, it's been, you know, the Diaz ouster, which was, I think, a long time

[00:02:30] coming, but seemed to come quite suddenly this week and the sort of chaos at

[00:02:35] City Hall over a couple of proposals that the council has has put forward

[00:02:40] but has not adopted.

[00:02:42] That is the gig worker ordinance, which, you know, I don't want to get

[00:02:45] into too much because we've talked about it before.

[00:02:47] But the minimum wage changes and also proposal.

[00:02:51] And I should just say because I'm working on it.

[00:02:53] Right. I mean, I can sell for door to.

[00:02:55] So, yeah. Right.

[00:02:56] So so there's so that that got put off at the last minute on

[00:03:00] Tuesday of this week and then on also on Tuesday,

[00:03:04] Councilmember Marissa Rivera, a newcomer to the council, proposed

[00:03:09] legislation that would have the effect of, you know,

[00:03:14] I'm sorry she disagrees with this, but it would have the almost certain

[00:03:17] effect of cutting funding to the city's largest anti-displacement

[00:03:21] initiative, the Equitable Development Initiative.

[00:03:24] You know, and people, despite the fact that she proposed this late on a

[00:03:27] Friday afternoon before Memorial Day, people showed up, I mean, in numbers

[00:03:31] that I have not seen in a long time, you know, overflowing the City

[00:03:35] Council chambers spilling out into the birth and nightlandish room

[00:03:38] downstairs to object to this.

[00:03:40] And she responded by saying that they were all victims of disinformation

[00:03:44] campaigns. And that was the word she used, disinformation, and that they

[00:03:47] just didn't understand what her legislation would do, which I think

[00:03:51] piss people off like even more than the initial proposal to defund

[00:03:56] all of their programs.

[00:03:57] Big picture, but there is a lot of chaos.

[00:03:59] I would argue that some of it is the result of people who without a

[00:04:03] lot of experience or institutional knowledge necessarily, you know, I

[00:04:07] mean, including in the gig worker stuff, you know, Sarah Nelson, to a

[00:04:10] certain extent, but, you know, Marissa Rivera coming in and saying,

[00:04:13] she is a five month council member, knows more about the equitable

[00:04:16] development initiative than all the people that receive money from it

[00:04:19] and helped create it.

[00:04:21] So yeah, there's a lot of chaos.

[00:04:22] I mean, it might just be like a swirling miasma of coincidences,

[00:04:26] but it does feel certainly like it's not being governed very well

[00:04:30] right now.

[00:04:31] Yeah, there just seems to be like a lot of stuff that just doesn't

[00:04:35] seem to be going very well.

[00:04:36] Like, like it doesn't seem like smooth sailing.

[00:04:38] And like I said, like I'm kind of obsessed with the school district

[00:04:41] because I think, I think there the leadership has been really not

[00:04:47] transparent.

[00:04:48] You know, we just had school board elections last year, right?

[00:04:51] Where it was a pretty open secret, but nonetheless, the school

[00:04:55] district was kind of hiding the ball on the fact that they had

[00:04:58] this disastrously bad budget scenario that and they were planning to

[00:05:03] close schools.

[00:05:04] And yet we didn't have that debate as part of the school board

[00:05:06] races because the district sort of did all this sort of like

[00:05:10] essentially bullshit spin happy talk about, you know, oh, we just

[00:05:14] want to have a conversation about well-resourced schools, you

[00:05:17] know, which was teeing up the fact that they were going to come

[00:05:19] in with this draconian proposal to like close up, you know,

[00:05:22] 20 elementary schools.

[00:05:23] And even that barely dents their budget deficit.

[00:05:27] And they're still hiding the ball on the fact that they're

[00:05:29] clearly planning for like very large scale layoffs of teachers.

[00:05:34] So the schools aren't going to be well-resourced at all.

[00:05:36] It's a whole it's just a big steaming pile of bullshit, right?

[00:05:39] Like they're going to have shittily resource schools with like

[00:05:43] bigger class sizes.

[00:05:44] But anyway, I feel like this has been a trend in Seattle.

[00:05:47] I think when you talk about the resources and hiding the

[00:05:49] ball on that, I actually think that has been going on at the

[00:05:52] city as well.

[00:05:53] And I think that is, you know, I mean, and which impacts

[00:05:57] KCREJ because the city funds KCREJ.

[00:05:59] I think that we've had years of talking about this looming

[00:06:02] budget deficit that is hitting this year finally without making

[00:06:06] any decisions that would actually start to address that and

[00:06:10] sort of putting it off and putting it off.

[00:06:11] And, you know, the campaigns talked about auditing the

[00:06:14] budget, you know, all the people that want to, you know,

[00:06:17] they in various ways that they would really look for

[00:06:20] cuts in the budget, but they didn't say where.

[00:06:22] And now they're having to make those cuts.

[00:06:23] I want to go back to EDI, the economic development

[00:06:27] situation for a minute, because I do think, you know,

[00:06:30] Maritza Rivera was one of the ones that specifically said

[00:06:32] she wants to audit the budget.

[00:06:34] Now, what that means has always been pretty unclear.

[00:06:37] Budget does get audited.

[00:06:38] But in any case, you know, she said that she wants to find

[00:06:41] savings. And it is interesting to me that, you know,

[00:06:45] she was a big supporter of supporting the police,

[00:06:49] giving them raises.

[00:06:50] And so the new police budget or the new police contract,

[00:06:54] rather, will give police 24 percent raises over three

[00:06:58] years. And that's going to be very expensive.

[00:07:00] That is going to add to that budget deficit, you know,

[00:07:02] not by the equivalent amount.

[00:07:04] But, you know, it's still making it worse.

[00:07:06] And at the same time, when looking for savings,

[00:07:09] it appears that she's gone straight to this program

[00:07:12] that is really the only big anti-displacement effort

[00:07:15] that the city has, you know, has funded.

[00:07:17] And they've done so since 2016 and said, you know,

[00:07:21] not just that, you know, we need to look at it

[00:07:23] and figure out what is going wrong.

[00:07:24] How can we help these, you know, any organizations

[00:07:28] that are struggling to spend their funds to be more

[00:07:30] effective, but instead saying, let's just cut it.

[00:07:33] And again, I know she would dispute that that's what

[00:07:35] she's saying, but that is the effect that her

[00:07:37] the clear language of her amendment would have.

[00:07:40] Right. My understanding is that you would dispute

[00:07:42] that and that her at least her intent, whatever

[00:07:44] the language of her amendment, her intent was

[00:07:47] that and this gets into I don't want to get

[00:07:48] way down in the weeds on the policy stuff here,

[00:07:50] but there's this equitable development program.

[00:07:53] Some of these projects take a long time to come

[00:07:55] to fruition. There was a carryover that was

[00:07:57] getting voted on of 53 and some million dollars,

[00:08:01] you know, of money that was unspent and

[00:08:04] uncontracted from the previous year's allocation.

[00:08:07] And what she has said is that she had some

[00:08:09] pretty significant questions for OPCD,

[00:08:11] the department that's sort of responsible

[00:08:13] for this program about what is the status

[00:08:16] of those projects? Like why are some of them

[00:08:19] seemingly going years with this this this

[00:08:22] funding that's been allocated for them sitting,

[00:08:25] you know, on contracted and unused?

[00:08:29] Are there some issues here that that need

[00:08:32] to be kind of looked at?

[00:08:33] So I think that was the intent to take

[00:08:35] a closer look. I think she as she said,

[00:08:37] she felt like she hadn't gotten sufficient

[00:08:39] information about OPCD from OPCD to answer

[00:08:43] her questions, which is what led to her

[00:08:45] to do this proviso. But it wasn't an intent

[00:08:47] to shut down the program or whatever,

[00:08:49] but it was an intent to kind of slow

[00:08:51] things down to get more information.

[00:08:52] Now, leave it aside. I mean, because we can

[00:08:55] I think there's nothing to argue here.

[00:08:57] What the legislation says is that by

[00:09:00] September 24th, the department shall spend

[00:09:04] all of that money, meaning distribute

[00:09:05] all of this the money to the dozens

[00:09:07] and dozens of organizations that receive

[00:09:09] it and get it out the door.

[00:09:12] Or if they don't do that.

[00:09:14] And there's also a request for a

[00:09:16] report in here, which is what you're

[00:09:17] talking about. All this information like

[00:09:19] what are these programs doing?

[00:09:20] What are the problems, etc.?

[00:09:21] So those two things, they have to do

[00:09:23] both of those two things.

[00:09:24] Spend all the money that was carried

[00:09:25] over and provide this report before

[00:09:27] there can be any legislation to

[00:09:29] lift the proviso.

[00:09:30] And all of that has to happen by

[00:09:31] September 24th.

[00:09:34] So that is not a possible like that

[00:09:36] scenario will have the effect.

[00:09:39] And that's why I'm saying it

[00:09:40] doesn't explicitly say shut down

[00:09:41] this program. It says they have to

[00:09:42] spend all this money within three

[00:09:44] months or we shut it down.

[00:09:45] Right. And just to be clear for our

[00:09:47] audience here, the proviso was

[00:09:48] actually there's a new allocation

[00:09:50] right of another additional 25

[00:09:51] million dollars to the program for

[00:09:53] this year.

[00:09:54] And she was provisoing that right

[00:09:55] holding the allocation of the 25

[00:09:58] million until these conditions

[00:10:00] were met around the 53 million

[00:10:02] dollar carryover.

[00:10:03] Right. That says so just to be

[00:10:04] clear about about

[00:10:07] at least to some extent about

[00:10:08] what the kind of convoluted

[00:10:09] policy sort of sort of issues

[00:10:10] are with this shit.

[00:10:12] But my understanding

[00:10:14] of what the council members intent

[00:10:16] was is was not

[00:10:18] to like, you know, force

[00:10:20] the removal of these funds,

[00:10:22] but to kind of essentially

[00:10:24] send a wake up call to OPCD to

[00:10:26] provide the information.

[00:10:27] Well, OPCD would argue

[00:10:29] I think that they have provided

[00:10:30] ample information.

[00:10:31] I mean, they've met with her

[00:10:32] three times.

[00:10:33] They, you know, for very

[00:10:34] lengthy meetings,

[00:10:36] you know, I mean, you're

[00:10:37] talking about her intent and I'm

[00:10:38] talking about actions and I care

[00:10:40] more about actions.

[00:10:42] I guess what I will say about

[00:10:43] this is that I think

[00:10:45] this is sort of a prelude

[00:10:48] to what is going to be, I

[00:10:50] think, probably a spectacular

[00:10:52] I mean, beyond the scale of this,

[00:10:54] but a spectacular shit show once

[00:10:56] we get to the budget process

[00:10:57] this fall. Right.

[00:10:58] We have the city's facing,

[00:10:59] as you said, a 250

[00:11:01] million dollar deficit and

[00:11:03] at least.

[00:11:04] Yeah. With the addition of

[00:11:05] these belief raises

[00:11:06] and contracts that does make

[00:11:08] it worse.

[00:11:09] Right.

[00:11:09] And so we were talking about

[00:11:11] a much smaller fraction of

[00:11:13] that kind of money in every

[00:11:14] organization that sort of

[00:11:16] affected by that, as you

[00:11:18] said, came out for this

[00:11:19] council meeting. I listened to

[00:11:20] a bunch of hours of public

[00:11:22] testimony and a lot of it was

[00:11:24] quite harsh.

[00:11:25] Right. You know, people

[00:11:27] denouncing all of the council

[00:11:28] members as a bunch of, you

[00:11:30] know, racists or whatever most

[00:11:31] of it directed, obviously, the

[00:11:32] council member Rivera.

[00:11:34] But I just think

[00:11:36] what does that say for what's

[00:11:37] going to happen in this budget

[00:11:38] process where the mayor has

[00:11:39] made a pledge to say no new

[00:11:41] taxes. We're going to, you

[00:11:42] know, fill the deficit

[00:11:44] essentially with cuts of one

[00:11:46] kind or another, probably

[00:11:47] largely through repurposing

[00:11:49] the jumpstart tax.

[00:11:50] Right. Well, and not then the

[00:11:51] jumpstart tax, we should say,

[00:11:52] I mean, it plays into this.

[00:11:54] It funds the equitable

[00:11:55] development initiative.

[00:11:56] That's one of its priorities.

[00:11:58] And so right there are

[00:11:59] millions of dollars in there

[00:12:00] that go to homeless programs

[00:12:01] too. Right. I mean, I'd see

[00:12:03] is a risk on the board

[00:12:04] chair of the ESE. I know

[00:12:05] there's there's millions of

[00:12:07] dollars in that in that

[00:12:08] kitty to if you defund

[00:12:10] EDI effectively by saying,

[00:12:12] you know, you can't spend any

[00:12:13] of the funds from forever

[00:12:15] until now and for this

[00:12:16] year, then that really

[00:12:18] does free up jumpstart to

[00:12:19] be even more of a

[00:12:21] slush fund for the general

[00:12:22] fund, which I think is, you

[00:12:24] know, very obviously where

[00:12:26] the council has been going

[00:12:27] all along.

[00:12:28] And I'm not saying I don't

[00:12:29] understand that impulse,

[00:12:30] but we've talked before.

[00:12:31] It's a dedicated fund.

[00:12:32] It has a spend plan that

[00:12:34] is adopted into law

[00:12:35] that it has to be spent

[00:12:36] a certain way. So they'll

[00:12:36] have to, you know, in

[00:12:38] order to be legal,

[00:12:39] they'll have to unwind

[00:12:39] that. Yeah, they'll have

[00:12:41] to change the law.

[00:12:42] And this is a way of

[00:12:43] sort of, I think, getting

[00:12:45] a toe in the door

[00:12:46] on that by just saying,

[00:12:48] well, this program is

[00:12:49] confusing and I don't

[00:12:50] understand it.

[00:12:50] So let's just let's

[00:12:52] just halt this money.

[00:12:53] And I do want to say,

[00:12:55] you know, it wasn't just

[00:12:55] impassioned testimony

[00:12:57] calling Maritza Rivera

[00:12:58] racist.

[00:13:00] I mean, it was impassioned

[00:13:01] test. There was a lot of

[00:13:02] that. It was impassioned

[00:13:03] testimony saying,

[00:13:04] here is what I what

[00:13:06] my program, you know,

[00:13:07] for example, like

[00:13:08] one of one of our

[00:13:09] program in the central

[00:13:09] district.

[00:13:11] You know, here's what

[00:13:12] our program has received,

[00:13:13] you know, and what we've

[00:13:14] been able to do with

[00:13:15] this funding.

[00:13:15] Here's the number of

[00:13:16] people we have been

[00:13:17] able to serve.

[00:13:18] Here's our project that

[00:13:19] we are halfway through

[00:13:20] that would then lose

[00:13:21] funding and we'd have to

[00:13:22] go all the way back

[00:13:23] to the beginning with

[00:13:24] these with a complex

[00:13:25] capital project.

[00:13:26] And I mean,

[00:13:27] Rivera's comment

[00:13:29] that essentially

[00:13:30] is suggested that

[00:13:31] none of the people

[00:13:31] that spoke understand

[00:13:33] the program or understand

[00:13:34] her legislation came

[00:13:36] across as incredibly

[00:13:37] condescending.

[00:13:38] And I think and

[00:13:38] that was what people

[00:13:40] expressed to me

[00:13:40] afterwards is,

[00:13:42] you know, this is

[00:13:42] this is somebody who's

[00:13:43] been there five months

[00:13:44] and we understand

[00:13:46] this program.

[00:13:46] We're very familiar

[00:13:47] with it.

[00:13:48] And I would just say,

[00:13:48] I know you want to interrupt,

[00:13:49] but I will say real quick,

[00:13:52] you know, I think

[00:13:53] I think her demeanor

[00:13:54] during the meeting,

[00:13:55] there were tribal leaders,

[00:13:57] government leaders

[00:13:58] speaking to her directly

[00:14:00] and she would not

[00:14:00] look at them.

[00:14:01] And, you know,

[00:14:02] she was fiddling

[00:14:03] with her computer

[00:14:04] and, you know,

[00:14:05] not making eye contact.

[00:14:06] And I know you can't do

[00:14:07] sustained eye contact

[00:14:08] for three months,

[00:14:09] three hours.

[00:14:10] If God knows,

[00:14:11] it felt like three months.

[00:14:12] But, you know,

[00:14:13] but for three hours, sure.

[00:14:15] But I mean, there

[00:14:16] people were noticing

[00:14:17] and making comments

[00:14:18] about the fact that she

[00:14:19] frequently left the room.

[00:14:20] She wouldn't look at people.

[00:14:22] And it just it just

[00:14:23] was not a good look.

[00:14:24] I will say this about it.

[00:14:25] And then I think we should kind of

[00:14:26] move on to the broader

[00:14:28] question that I'm posing

[00:14:29] about why are we so fucked up?

[00:14:31] Yeah, I want to talk about

[00:14:32] STD in that context.

[00:14:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:14:34] Yeah.

[00:14:35] Look, I think the impulse

[00:14:37] for some greater scrutiny

[00:14:39] and oversight of

[00:14:41] how some of these

[00:14:42] these programs

[00:14:43] that have been established,

[00:14:44] but you know, by previous

[00:14:45] councils are going right

[00:14:47] and whether all of this money

[00:14:49] and all of these projects

[00:14:50] are actually on track

[00:14:51] and are going to happen.

[00:14:52] I think that impulse

[00:14:53] is a perfectly

[00:14:54] reasonable and good one.

[00:14:55] And I think there has been a tendency

[00:14:57] in recent years in Seattle

[00:14:59] where you have a bunch of people

[00:15:02] that that sort of wave off scrutiny

[00:15:04] by sort of yelling

[00:15:06] social justice, social justice.

[00:15:08] How dare you talk about

[00:15:09] our funding stream

[00:15:10] because social justice racism,

[00:15:12] racism, racism, right?

[00:15:13] I mean, I didn't hear anybody saying that.

[00:15:15] I heard a lot of people

[00:15:17] yelling in that room,

[00:15:19] you know, at that council,

[00:15:20] you know, basically saying like,

[00:15:22] how dare you do this?

[00:15:24] It's racist, racist, racist.

[00:15:26] I did hear a lot of that

[00:15:27] when I was listening.

[00:15:29] Anyway, my point

[00:15:30] is I'm not trying to say

[00:15:31] that there aren't a ton

[00:15:32] of really good projects

[00:15:33] that are being funded by this

[00:15:35] that are important

[00:15:37] and beneficial to various communities,

[00:15:40] you know, historically marginalized

[00:15:41] communities across the city.

[00:15:42] I'm not attacking

[00:15:43] the program at all,

[00:15:44] but I am saying,

[00:15:46] you know, it's not racist,

[00:15:49] racist, racist to say

[00:15:50] I want to have a little scrutiny

[00:15:51] of kind of how this program is working.

[00:15:53] Yeah, I think I think a vague impulse

[00:15:55] to scrutiny is what got

[00:15:56] a lot of these folks elected.

[00:15:58] And now that they actually

[00:15:59] have to deal with policy

[00:16:00] and legislation,

[00:16:01] they are not up to it.

[00:16:02] Well, it's a learning curve.

[00:16:03] I agree.

[00:16:04] Well, it's a learning curve

[00:16:05] that could take down,

[00:16:06] you know, dozens

[00:16:07] and dozens of programs.

[00:16:08] So I wouldn't put it,

[00:16:09] you know, put it

[00:16:10] set it aside so lightly.

[00:16:11] I mean, I think like to say,

[00:16:13] oh, that's a good impulse.

[00:16:14] OK, you can say that

[00:16:15] on the campaign trail.

[00:16:16] But when somebody is proposing

[00:16:17] specific legislation

[00:16:18] that would have a huge

[00:16:19] specific impact on organizations,

[00:16:22] you can't just say,

[00:16:23] oh, it's a good impulse.

[00:16:23] I like it like now.

[00:16:25] You have to look at the letter

[00:16:26] of what she's proposing and say

[00:16:28] this would be hugely problematic.

[00:16:30] And and I just want to say

[00:16:31] you also said that it was

[00:16:33] a previous council

[00:16:34] that established this.

[00:16:35] I believe this was established

[00:16:36] under Ed Murray

[00:16:38] and the current mayor

[00:16:39] who's Carol has been a big supporter

[00:16:41] of this program.

[00:16:42] So this is not a,

[00:16:43] you know, wacky lefty council thing.

[00:16:46] You know, as I think

[00:16:47] you were kind of implying like this.

[00:16:49] No, I'm not attacking the program.

[00:16:50] This is a popular program

[00:16:52] that has broad support.

[00:16:53] And to see Rivera attack

[00:16:55] it was really odd.

[00:16:57] I mean, I was looking at this

[00:16:58] and the EDI thing

[00:16:59] is not something I've ever tracked closely.

[00:17:01] So I was looking at it

[00:17:01] over the last couple of days

[00:17:02] because I knew we'd be talking about it

[00:17:03] after the after this,

[00:17:05] you know,

[00:17:06] after basically the council member

[00:17:07] had walked into a buzzsaw.

[00:17:09] This was really what happened.

[00:17:10] You know, I mean,

[00:17:11] there are questions.

[00:17:12] I have questions.

[00:17:13] There are 77 projects

[00:17:14] that have been, you know,

[00:17:16] been earmarked for funding out of this

[00:17:18] and 20 only 20 some have been completed.

[00:17:21] What's going on with the other 50?

[00:17:22] You know, so anyway,

[00:17:23] I think there are some questions.

[00:17:25] This happened with the Office of Housing too.

[00:17:27] The Office of Housing

[00:17:28] has had a lot of trouble

[00:17:29] getting projects off the ground

[00:17:30] because of all the same reasons

[00:17:32] that are affecting projects

[00:17:33] across the country.

[00:17:34] And we don't say,

[00:17:35] oh, I guess we just won't carry forward

[00:17:37] the Office of Housing's budget next year.

[00:17:40] You know, I mean,

[00:17:40] this is a targeted attack.

[00:17:41] I can't say maybe some of these projects

[00:17:43] aren't going to happen.

[00:17:44] And maybe the project that made sense in 2018

[00:17:47] doesn't make sense in 2024

[00:17:48] if it hasn't gotten funded already,

[00:17:50] you know,

[00:17:50] if it hasn't gotten contracted already,

[00:17:51] maybe we should repurpose some of that money.

[00:17:53] I mean, I don't think

[00:17:54] that's crazy to look at, right?

[00:17:55] Like I'm not saying

[00:17:56] that's the case with any of these projects.

[00:17:57] But nobody's proposing just looking at it.

[00:17:59] I guess that's that's my problem

[00:18:00] with this discussion.

[00:18:01] You're having a theoretical conversation

[00:18:02] about what if we just did that?

[00:18:04] Okay, let's move on.

[00:18:05] Yeah, yeah, let's move on.

[00:18:06] I agree.

[00:18:07] By the way,

[00:18:07] it's weird to do this without David.

[00:18:10] I feel like we're trying to

[00:18:12] we're both trying to be David.

[00:18:15] And failing.

[00:18:16] Well, Sadi, aren't you really just being an asshole?

[00:18:19] Yeah.

[00:18:20] And Erica, aren't you really just being disingenuous?

[00:18:22] I think this episode is a huge victory

[00:18:24] if we don't kill ourselves,

[00:18:26] kill each other by the end of it,

[00:18:27] or ourselves.

[00:18:30] Okay, so moving on to SPD.

[00:18:32] You know,

[00:18:33] I think there's a question about,

[00:18:35] I mean,

[00:18:36] an interesting question about

[00:18:38] whether SPD is ungovernable.

[00:18:40] I think the answer is probably no.

[00:18:42] I think that there are really specific issues

[00:18:45] that are at play with Diaz,

[00:18:47] but it is also true that I was looking back

[00:18:50] and shout out to Aaron Pickus,

[00:18:53] friend and political consultant

[00:18:54] who actually pointed this out to me.

[00:18:56] And I was looking back

[00:18:58] and I think there has not been,

[00:19:00] unless I'm incorrect,

[00:19:01] a permanent police chief in place

[00:19:03] during a mayoral election since 2005,

[00:19:06] which is when Greg Nichols got re-elected.

[00:19:08] I mean, this is just a job

[00:19:10] that has a lot of churn and turnover.

[00:19:12] Yeah.

[00:19:12] Do you think that's just inherent to the job

[00:19:15] or do you think something different

[00:19:17] is going on with Diaz?

[00:19:18] Well, look,

[00:19:19] I got asked to do an interview

[00:19:21] with one of the TV stations earlier today

[00:19:23] just about this.

[00:19:24] Like, what is going on?

[00:19:26] Why is there so much churn?

[00:19:27] And here's what I think

[00:19:28] and you'll probably totally disagree with this,

[00:19:30] but I think there was a period

[00:19:32] probably about 10 years ago

[00:19:34] when I actually think

[00:19:36] institutions like SPD

[00:19:39] or the Seattle schools

[00:19:41] or Sound Transit

[00:19:43] or what have you,

[00:19:45] were actually going in a positive direction.

[00:19:48] Looking at SPD,

[00:19:49] we had the consent decree,

[00:19:50] which I think was in 2012.

[00:19:53] Kathleen O'Toole came in as police chief

[00:19:55] in 2014 as an outsider.

[00:19:57] And I think we saw real tangible progress

[00:20:00] on a whole series of issues

[00:20:01] in terms of the culture of the department,

[00:20:04] use of force,

[00:20:05] incidents went down,

[00:20:07] the reports of biased policing went down.

[00:20:10] There were like measurable positive outcomes,

[00:20:12] which was why was that happening?

[00:20:14] Because it was a slow, boring,

[00:20:17] incremental process of getting down

[00:20:20] into the weeds of like

[00:20:21] how these places work

[00:20:23] and kind of doing the work to chase them, right?

[00:20:26] I think we were seeing progress

[00:20:27] at the school district

[00:20:28] of educational attainment levels,

[00:20:29] you know, like test scores

[00:20:31] and stuff like that were on the rise.

[00:20:32] Graduation rates were on the rise.

[00:20:34] Like we were seeing noticeable good things

[00:20:37] that were happening 10 years ago.

[00:20:39] And now all of that's kind of turned to shit.

[00:20:41] And I think part of the reason for that,

[00:20:43] a big part of the reason for that

[00:20:45] is that because of the influence of,

[00:20:47] you know, social media

[00:20:49] and the incentive structures

[00:20:50] changing on our politics

[00:20:51] and changes within sort of

[00:20:54] progressive cultural values,

[00:20:55] we've sort of gotten away from the like

[00:20:57] kind of slow boring,

[00:20:59] you know, to borrow from Matt Iglesias

[00:21:02] long term and went big on flashy,

[00:21:06] performative, you know,

[00:21:08] reactive bumper sticker,

[00:21:10] ideological like governance.

[00:21:12] To go back, we're talking about SPD

[00:21:14] and I think you're wrong on that front.

[00:21:16] I think I agree with you

[00:21:17] about the incrementalism

[00:21:18] and the, you know,

[00:21:19] the fact that things did seem to be

[00:21:21] improving on a lot of fronts.

[00:21:23] I totally disagree that like SPD,

[00:21:25] for example, is engaged in performative

[00:21:27] anything or being progressive

[00:21:29] in any way that is different

[00:21:31] than what they did before.

[00:21:32] I mean, I don't think that SPD was reactive

[00:21:35] to social media in, you know,

[00:21:37] in a progressive or leftist way.

[00:21:40] What I'm saying is

[00:21:42] the leadership of this city

[00:21:44] six or seven years ago,

[00:21:46] you know, well, and then

[00:21:47] particularly like go back,

[00:21:48] it's 2020 is a big turning point

[00:21:50] that we always argue about,

[00:21:51] suddenly decided like all that reform shit

[00:21:54] was a complete failure

[00:21:55] and they were just,

[00:21:56] let's throw it all out.

[00:21:58] It wasn't suddenly decided.

[00:21:59] I mean, you're acting like

[00:22:00] that it was reactive to,

[00:22:02] you know, to chop or something.

[00:22:04] I mean, there was a

[00:22:04] there was a huge pressure from

[00:22:06] there was a huge pressure from activists

[00:22:08] that said that said reforming the police.

[00:22:11] Among other things,

[00:22:12] a series of police killings of civilians

[00:22:14] that, you know, by any measure,

[00:22:16] you know, were morally unjustified,

[00:22:18] you know, even if they were found legally justified.

[00:22:21] I just I think that

[00:22:22] the moral outrage was not because of woke.

[00:22:24] It was because of events

[00:22:26] that happened that people were,

[00:22:28] you know, were reacting to with with anger

[00:22:30] and saying look, this reform stuff hasn't worked.

[00:22:32] We need to go further now,

[00:22:33] whether you agree with where the further,

[00:22:36] you know, what is like is a question.

[00:22:38] But but I mean,

[00:22:39] I think it's clear that,

[00:22:41] you know, on the on the police front

[00:22:42] merely like slowly reforming was not working.

[00:22:45] It was where it was making progress

[00:22:47] and in fact it shit got worse

[00:22:48] because they totally derailed the reform stuff

[00:22:52] like like look,

[00:22:53] it's a complicated story, right?

[00:22:54] As you say, there was a lot of churn in police.

[00:22:56] I think Kathleen O'Toole who has now come back,

[00:22:58] right? It was interesting as part of the announcement

[00:23:00] yesterday that Kathleen O'Toole is coming back

[00:23:02] as an advisor to Sue Rahr who is the interim interim

[00:23:05] sheriff and by the way,

[00:23:06] there are interesting questions about what the Charter

[00:23:09] says and police chief.

[00:23:10] Yeah, someone mentioned to me like whether like

[00:23:13] an interim is supposed to be internal.

[00:23:16] I have heard in the past that I don't know.

[00:23:21] I'm glad they brought in Sue Rahr.

[00:23:23] I think that's a great choice,

[00:23:24] you know, I think a lot of people were very relieved.

[00:23:27] I mean there were crazy rumors running around that.

[00:23:30] Oh, it's going to be this person or that, you know,

[00:23:31] there was, you know,

[00:23:32] Tim Burgess, Carmen Best is coming back.

[00:23:35] You know, there was all this stuff like like the

[00:23:37] the rumor mill was operating and overdrawing.

[00:23:40] It was just insane.

[00:23:43] But anyway, just finished my point

[00:23:44] and I know you want to jump in but look,

[00:23:47] I just think that whatever the good intentions

[00:23:50] were whatever the kind of triggering incidents

[00:23:54] were and you know,

[00:23:55] there were obviously the murder of George Floyd

[00:23:57] was a moral outrage, right?

[00:23:59] And people should react to that.

[00:24:01] As was the death of Charlene O'Liles,

[00:24:03] as was the death of John T. Williams.

[00:24:05] I mean, I have more questions about sort of

[00:24:09] Charlene O'Liles.

[00:24:09] But anyway, we've argued about this in the past

[00:24:11] about, you know,

[00:24:12] that was I think a more ambiguous case.

[00:24:14] But as you are arguing that reform made a concrete

[00:24:18] difference and I guess without getting too much into it,

[00:24:20] you're not really giving evidence.

[00:24:21] You're just saying then woke took over everything

[00:24:24] and it was bad.

[00:24:25] What I'm saying is then there was a turn towards like

[00:24:28] this sort of flashy like abolition defund.

[00:24:31] Like that's what we want to do.

[00:24:32] We don't want to do the reform stuff anymore

[00:24:34] because we don't think it did anything when in fact,

[00:24:36] you could look at the incidents of bias policing.

[00:24:39] You could look at the, you know,

[00:24:40] rates of use of force incidents, right?

[00:24:43] And you could see real progress,

[00:24:45] measurable progress happening for a long time.

[00:24:48] And I think all that reform should,

[00:24:50] we ended up in a worse place.

[00:24:51] I think we ended up in a worse place

[00:24:53] because we abandoned reform and the radical shit didn't fly.

[00:24:57] And then, and now we never have gotten,

[00:25:00] we haven't really even gotten back to doing

[00:25:02] the reform part either, right?

[00:25:04] Well, I mean, we are still under parts of the federal

[00:25:07] consent decree and you know,

[00:25:08] whether you, you know,

[00:25:09] I mean, I think Judge Robart,

[00:25:10] let's, you know,

[00:25:12] if we consider him a somewhat neutral source

[00:25:14] compared to you or me has not agreed,

[00:25:17] generally speaking over the years you're talking about

[00:25:19] that the reform shit did work

[00:25:21] because he kept the city under the consent decree.

[00:25:24] Without getting like too much into that,

[00:25:26] I want to get back to Diaz.

[00:25:28] I think, you know,

[00:25:31] the best, I mean,

[00:25:32] I don't know if it's the best example,

[00:25:34] but an example of how reform

[00:25:35] hasn't changed the police department

[00:25:38] and couldn't, I think,

[00:25:40] is the stuff that, you know,

[00:25:42] that he's being accused of

[00:25:43] and that the department is being accused of.

[00:25:45] And that is, you know,

[00:25:47] a culture of misogyny

[00:25:48] and in some cases anti-black racism.

[00:25:50] And, you know,

[00:25:52] a culture of casual harassment,

[00:25:54] casual misogyny, discrimination, retaliation.

[00:25:56] And, you know,

[00:25:57] and women just not wanting to be cops,

[00:26:00] particularly at this department

[00:26:02] more than at other departments.

[00:26:04] And, you know,

[00:26:05] and I think that is a huge issue

[00:26:07] that didn't even come up really

[00:26:09] in the press conference yesterday.

[00:26:11] I mean, it was pretty bizarre to sit there

[00:26:15] and, you know,

[00:26:17] watch reporters ask questions

[00:26:19] kind of around that issue

[00:26:20] and watch Bruce Harrell

[00:26:22] dodge the issue completely.

[00:26:24] And even Sue Raher

[00:26:25] didn't want to talk about the culture at SPD.

[00:26:27] She just said,

[00:26:28] in response to my question,

[00:26:29] you know,

[00:26:30] basically I asked,

[00:26:31] you know,

[00:26:32] nobody's brought up the women

[00:26:34] and, you know,

[00:26:35] are you concerned

[00:26:36] about the overall culture at SPD?

[00:26:38] And she said,

[00:26:38] I'm concerned about the culture

[00:26:39] at all police departments.

[00:26:40] SPD is no better or worse than any other.

[00:26:43] And I think that's incorrect.

[00:26:45] And I think like,

[00:26:46] I think until SPD acknowledges that

[00:26:48] and until, you know,

[00:26:49] Sue Raher or whoever comes after

[00:26:50] or acknowledges that,

[00:26:51] I mean, they've got a real problem.

[00:26:52] And, you know,

[00:26:53] you can't reform your way out of,

[00:26:55] you know,

[00:26:55] this toxic culture of misogyny

[00:26:57] that they have there.

[00:26:59] I think you're making some assumptions here.

[00:27:00] I mean,

[00:27:01] it seems very likely they have some real,

[00:27:04] I think they do have a cultural problem.

[00:27:06] I think they've had an ongoing cultural problem

[00:27:07] that they need to work on.

[00:27:08] Are they worse than anywhere else

[00:27:10] at police department?

[00:27:11] I don't know that.

[00:27:11] In fact,

[00:27:12] one of the things that came up

[00:27:13] in the press conference yesterday was

[00:27:14] when these lawsuits got filed

[00:27:16] a few weeks ago

[00:27:16] and when we argue about it

[00:27:18] on a previous episode,

[00:27:19] right?

[00:27:19] One of the things we talked about

[00:27:21] was the fact that the mayor

[00:27:22] asked for an investigation

[00:27:23] and then kind of preempted the investigation

[00:27:26] by booting Diaz before it's really sort of

[00:27:29] produced any results or conclusions.

[00:27:31] So I think the Diaz appointment

[00:27:34] right was always

[00:27:36] why first of all,

[00:27:37] he was interim for two years.

[00:27:38] The mayor gets elected

[00:27:40] does a quote unquote

[00:27:41] I'm doing,

[00:27:42] you know,

[00:27:43] air quotes right now,

[00:27:44] quote unquote national search.

[00:27:46] But I think we all knew that search was

[00:27:48] had a sort of preordained outcome.

[00:27:50] The mayor quite personally liked

[00:27:53] Chief Diaz.

[00:27:54] I thought that was clear at the

[00:27:55] even at the press conference yesterday.

[00:27:57] That's all he talked about

[00:27:58] was what a great and upstanding

[00:27:59] and honorable and unimpeachable guy

[00:28:02] he was right.

[00:28:03] He likes the mayor liked Diaz personally

[00:28:06] and I thought I think he trusted him

[00:28:09] and thought he would

[00:28:10] I think probably correctly

[00:28:11] that Diaz would be solicitous

[00:28:13] of making sure that if the mayor had

[00:28:15] concerns about this or that going on in policing

[00:28:17] that the chief would be responsive to that.

[00:28:19] But you know,

[00:28:21] Diaz was not a reformer, right?

[00:28:23] He had no reform credentials.

[00:28:25] He was somebody who came up through

[00:28:28] SPD along with Carmen Best his predecessor

[00:28:32] unlike Kathleen O'Toole, right?

[00:28:34] An outsider that Ed Murray brought in

[00:28:36] specifically with a

[00:28:37] to do a cultural shakeup.

[00:28:40] And so I think the value of Diaz

[00:28:42] was that he ran a kind of

[00:28:44] quiet status quo department

[00:28:47] under difficult circumstances

[00:28:49] and when it wasn't quiet anymore

[00:28:51] and it was a big fucking mess

[00:28:53] and you know,

[00:28:54] there were all these allegations flying around

[00:28:56] and it does look like maybe he

[00:28:58] was too accommodating of somebody

[00:29:01] I think Diaz had a personal relationship with

[00:29:04] was he a captain?

[00:29:05] O'Neil.

[00:29:06] I forget what his rank is.

[00:29:07] Diaz is also personally accused

[00:29:09] by some of these women.

[00:29:10] I want to say and that is very important

[00:29:12] because the mayor of Seattle

[00:29:14] stood up there and I would argue like

[00:29:16] kind of prejudiced the case to a certain extent.

[00:29:19] I mean, he's not testifying in court

[00:29:21] but he is being a character witness

[00:29:23] in public for essentially the innocence of this guy.

[00:29:28] I mean, you don't stand up there

[00:29:29] and say somebody has a huge amount of integrity

[00:29:31] and I'm quoting words here,

[00:29:33] honorable, which should have absolute faith

[00:29:35] in the department under his leadership,

[00:29:37] this incredible leader.

[00:29:38] You don't say all that

[00:29:39] if you think that there is

[00:29:41] an inkling of a possibility that he did

[00:29:43] some of the things he's accused of.

[00:29:44] Right, well, he did push him out.

[00:29:46] He was saying this in the context.

[00:29:48] But he said that he did.

[00:29:49] He described it as a great sacrifice by Diaz

[00:29:52] that he took because he was becoming a distraction

[00:29:55] and again, those are quotes.

[00:29:56] So I don't think it's,

[00:29:58] he didn't stand up there and say

[00:29:59] these are disturbing allegations.

[00:30:02] We take them seriously.

[00:30:03] We're very concerned

[00:30:04] and for the good of Seattle

[00:30:07] and for the good of the Seattle Police Department

[00:30:08] moving forward, I have asked Police Chief Diaz

[00:30:11] to resign, end of story.

[00:30:13] No more effusive praise.

[00:30:14] But I mean, it just didn't go like that.

[00:30:16] Well, as we saw and as you saw,

[00:30:18] I wasn't there but I heard at the end

[00:30:20] of the press conference this came up

[00:30:22] that Diaz does have a fan base, right?

[00:30:26] A base of ardent support from some members

[00:30:29] of the community, folks like Harriet Walden

[00:30:31] and Victoria Beach, right?

[00:30:32] Who are both allowed to speak at length yesterday

[00:30:36] as part of the press conference

[00:30:37] when it was a press conference

[00:30:39] for the press to ask questions.

[00:30:41] No, I heard they were kind of putting

[00:30:42] the mayor on the spot, right?

[00:30:43] I mean, they were not happy with the mayor's decision.

[00:30:45] That's true.

[00:30:46] Yeah.

[00:30:47] I mean, they were not happy with the decision

[00:30:50] but I mean, they certainly got plenty of time

[00:30:53] to speak their piece while at a press event

[00:30:57] where they were not part of the program.

[00:30:59] I'm just not willing to cast Diaz

[00:31:02] he added to the fires of hell.

[00:31:04] We've talked about this.

[00:31:05] I don't think firing someone

[00:31:06] is being cast into the fires of hell.

[00:31:08] I don't think men get canceled

[00:31:10] and I just don't believe in all this language.

[00:31:13] I'm not attacking the firing.

[00:31:15] As I was saying before,

[00:31:16] I think Diaz's value to the mayor was that

[00:31:19] he ran a quiet department

[00:31:21] and when he couldn't run a quiet department anymore,

[00:31:24] he's out and I don't think that's a bad decision

[00:31:26] on the mayor's part.

[00:31:27] Well, I don't think the issue was

[00:31:27] that the department was too silent.

[00:31:30] I think it was that the women

[00:31:32] who have been complaining pretty vocally

[00:31:34] finally spoke up to the extent

[00:31:36] that they actually sued

[00:31:37] which is a very, you know,

[00:31:38] it's a major decision

[00:31:40] and putting yourself out there in the public

[00:31:42] as somebody who's suing the police department

[00:31:44] as an officer is a major decision.

[00:31:46] Totally.

[00:31:46] You know, I mean, as somebody said on Twitter,

[00:31:49] yes, I seem to be back on Twitter.

[00:31:51] I don't know why, but anyway, somebody said, you know...

[00:31:53] You can't stay away, Erica.

[00:31:55] You can't stay away.

[00:31:55] In this city, we believe women

[00:31:58] unless they're cops.

[00:32:02] Look, the allegations are serious.

[00:32:03] We'll see what happens with the lawsuits

[00:32:05] and we'll see whether this investigation reaches

[00:32:07] some kind of conclusion

[00:32:09] or what they're going to do with that.

[00:32:10] I don't know, but yeah, Dias is out.

[00:32:13] Well, he's gonna...

[00:32:14] Let's be clear just factually.

[00:32:15] He's out as chief.

[00:32:17] He's still being...

[00:32:19] Yeah, he's still on the payroll

[00:32:21] as a director of special projects.

[00:32:24] Many people, including me,

[00:32:25] asked what special projects meant yesterday.

[00:32:27] The mayor had no answer at all,

[00:32:29] which was interesting.

[00:32:31] Despite saying that this was like

[00:32:32] a carefully considered decision made over

[00:32:35] a great length of time,

[00:32:36] he didn't have an answer to the most obvious question.

[00:32:39] I think they will tell you

[00:32:41] and they figure it out.

[00:32:42] Yeah, yeah.

[00:32:42] Real quickly, we need to wrap up,

[00:32:44] but I just wanna mention...

[00:32:45] You mentioned this at the top.

[00:32:47] The other example is

[00:32:48] the King County Regional Homelessness Authority.

[00:32:51] They have...

[00:32:52] The implementation board has recommended

[00:32:55] and the governing board is likely to approve

[00:32:58] a new director, Kelly Kennison,

[00:33:00] from the US Department of Health and Human Services

[00:33:04] after all the other finalists dropped out.

[00:33:07] And so that was kind of a

[00:33:10] air out of the balloon moment this week.

[00:33:12] Right, very messy search.

[00:33:14] There were three finalists,

[00:33:15] two of them pulled out.

[00:33:17] Some of the members of the search committee

[00:33:19] called for the search to be halted.

[00:33:20] Kathy Moore in particular,

[00:33:22] council member Kathy Moore said,

[00:33:24] hey, until we figure out

[00:33:26] the governance structural problems

[00:33:28] with King County Regional Homelessness Authority,

[00:33:30] it doesn't make sense to go forward

[00:33:31] with a CEO search.

[00:33:32] And I believe, Erica,

[00:33:33] you are to blame for all of this?

[00:33:36] Oh my God.

[00:33:37] For being the recipient of leaked information.

[00:33:41] Okay, so Darrell Powell,

[00:33:44] who is the interim

[00:33:45] and was the Mayor Harrell's choice

[00:33:48] to be the interim director,

[00:33:50] he made some comments in a closed meeting,

[00:33:53] which I reported about the LGBTQ community

[00:33:56] that he claims were taken out of context.

[00:34:00] They were reported to me by someone who was,

[00:34:04] you know, I don't even want to say any details at all,

[00:34:08] but they were reported as problematic

[00:34:12] in context to me.

[00:34:14] And I will just say that the obsessive search

[00:34:18] for who is the mole,

[00:34:19] who are the leakers,

[00:34:21] the fact is when you are focused,

[00:34:22] and this is also true under Mark Doane's frankly,

[00:34:25] before Powell was head of the agency,

[00:34:27] the moment you are focused on leakers,

[00:34:29] and the moment you are focused on catching the mole

[00:34:31] who's saying things to reporters,

[00:34:33] you have lost.

[00:34:35] Like you have absolutely lost the plot

[00:34:37] because if people are leaking things to reporters,

[00:34:40] it is generally because there is a problem

[00:34:42] that is not being aired in the public.

[00:34:44] And you know,

[00:34:45] and the fact that the KCRIJ does all,

[00:34:48] its entire job search under the cloak of,

[00:34:51] you know, extreme secrecy,

[00:34:52] I think is super problematic,

[00:34:54] not typical of other agencies

[00:34:56] and part of a lack of transparency in their whole culture.

[00:34:59] They don't put out alerts for meetings,

[00:35:01] they moved on very important meeting by an hour

[00:35:04] without telling anybody.

[00:35:05] You mentioned that.

[00:35:06] So man,

[00:35:08] but yeah, when you're obsessed with who's the leaker,

[00:35:10] like just give up.

[00:35:13] I mean, you've lost.

[00:35:14] Right.

[00:35:14] I think there are still big question marks

[00:35:17] about whether KCRA is going to survive very long.

[00:35:21] There are certainly huge questions about,

[00:35:24] you know, even if,

[00:35:26] as is likely there will be now a new CEO

[00:35:29] who seems, you know, potentially quite qualified,

[00:35:31] you know, somebody,

[00:35:32] but an outsider,

[00:35:33] somebody who's not local.

[00:35:35] We'll see what happens there.

[00:35:36] But I think there are a few themes

[00:35:38] that have been coming up

[00:35:39] in the course of our conversation today

[00:35:41] as we've been kind of jumping around

[00:35:43] with various organizations and issues.

[00:35:45] And you know, I don't know,

[00:35:47] I think there's a lot of,

[00:35:49] lack of transparency has come up

[00:35:51] in the context of a lot of these organizations,

[00:35:55] mixed motives.

[00:35:56] I don't know.

[00:35:57] I think there's a lot of performative bullshit

[00:35:59] in our politics right now.

[00:36:01] I've said this before

[00:36:02] and we see it across.

[00:36:04] I think the incentive structure

[00:36:06] for actually doing the work versus like grandstanding

[00:36:10] is fucked up sort of fundamentally

[00:36:13] in part because of social media,

[00:36:14] but other things that have happened.

[00:36:16] And I think it's leading to

[00:36:18] a real erosion of the quality of governance

[00:36:21] kind of across the board.

[00:36:23] I don't even think this is just a Seattle problem.

[00:36:24] I think there's probably a problem

[00:36:26] of municipal governments

[00:36:28] and big cities around the country.

[00:36:30] All right, we're going to wrap up there

[00:36:32] giving Sandeep Kaushik the last word.

[00:36:34] Ah, one for one.

[00:36:35] When I'm the moderator.

[00:36:39] Are you the moderator?

[00:36:40] I thought I was the moderator.

[00:36:41] See, this is an ideal situation, I think.

[00:36:44] Yeah.

[00:36:45] Thanks everybody for listening

[00:36:47] to another episode of Seattle Nice.

[00:36:48] Thank you to our editor, Quinn Waller,

[00:36:51] and you can support us on Patreon

[00:36:52] by going to patreon.com slash Seattle Nice.

[00:36:56] Talk to you next week.