Is Design Review dying in Seattle?

[00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the latest edition of Seattle Nice. I'm David Hyde here as always with Erica C Barnett of Publicola. Hi, Erica.

[00:00:18] Hello. We're back from recess.

[00:00:20] Oh yeah, back from our recess and political consultant Sandeep Kaushik. Sandeep, how are you?

[00:00:26] I'm good. I'm good. Just like the council we took the, you know, a chunk of August off.

[00:00:33] Unlike the council, it was one week, not two.

[00:00:35] Yeah. And unlike the council, we never showed the office. All right, today we're talking about new legislation that could make it easier to build in downtown Seattle.

[00:00:44] But first, I want to invite you, our listeners to the first Seattle Nice debate city council candidates, Tanya Wu and Alexis Mercedes-Rink are going to be joining us to answer some of your questions, some of our questions.

[00:00:56] I'm going to encourage folks in a minute here to send in some of their tough but fair questions. This will be happening at Town Hall, October 1st, 7 p.m. in the upstairs space that seats nearly a thousand people.

[00:01:07] So I want to ask the two of you like, I'm excited about this, but a thousand people, it's not quite a thousand, it's 700, 800 something or other.

[00:01:16] But you know, it seems like a lot. Do you think, are you excited? Do you think we could fill the room?

[00:01:21] I'll be happy if we get to like 30.

[00:01:25] Come on now, I think we could fill that room. If every single listener comes and you know, you don't even have to bring a friend. But if you bring a friend, you know, we'll need a bigger space.

[00:01:46] We'll need a bigger space.

[00:01:47] I'm excited about that. I'm excited about the next election of that room, and this is a citywide debate. So get your tickets now. This is our second live event of the year. And if you have any tough but fair questions to suggest for us, you can find our contact information in the show notes.

[00:02:00] And also a link to the Town Hall event if you want to get those tickets. All right, on to this week's topic, proposed legislation to make it easier to build in downtown Seattle by essentially exempting certain buildings from design review.

[00:02:12] Right, Erica. So what are advocates saying this legislation would do?

[00:02:16] Yeah, so I'll just describe the legislation really quick. So basically it would exempt buildings that are life sciences buildings, hotels or residential buildings in the downtown area like pretty much from South Lake Union up to Chinatown from design review, which is a process that allows these sort of volunteer boards to dictate the and you'll probably, you know,

[00:02:41] detect in my description kind of how I feel about this process, but it allows these volunteer boards of architects and concerned citizens to dictate things like the color of the brick or whether you know the walls are curvilinear enough for the surrounding environment or, you know, whether there's one example where

[00:02:58] building, you know, was considered too historic looking on Capitol Hill. So, you know, they can really add a lot of time and process to development. And so this this law would exempt those types of buildings for three years only in the downtown area from this design review process.

[00:03:14] Yeah, sort of downtown defined a little broadly because it extends up a little bit into first hill and as you were saying in the South Lake Union, but but yeah, in the core.

[00:03:23] Yeah, and it's part of it's being billed as part of Bruce Harrell's downtown activation plan because everything is being built that way these days. You know, it would make a significant change to the way that the new projects get built downtown probably impacting, you know, at the very least, you know, many dozens of projects, you know, over the next three years.

[00:03:45] Yeah, this is actually a substantive, you know, I mean we've talked about the downtown revitalization plan and it's, you know, 40 odd different sort of points or elements that the mayor's office had put out in the past and, you know, some of them seem really really small ball but this seems like a bigger, you know, a bigger

[00:04:06] move. It is only temporary, it's three years. It is only in the in the downtown core area but from the folks I talked to that do land use work this could make a significant impact in spurring the construction particularly of housing in that downtown core area and God knows we need more housing.

[00:04:25] I worry about and sort of hate the fact that this is going to be another one of these episodes where Sandy, you and Erica agree about everything. So I might have to try and get all granular advocacy with you or you know, I'll be like an architect from one of the boards, you know,

[00:04:42] You can be the NIMBY.

[00:04:44] Well, I mean NIMBY. I mean let's get into it. I mean, you know, in the recent past, as you've pointed out, Democrats have been focused mostly on blaming corporate developers for the high cost of housing. It's the evil landlords, it's the corporate developers.

[00:04:58] I think we've seen a lot of that on the old city council and, you know, throughout the Seattle media landscape but now we're seeing a shift. We've got a new city council.

[00:05:07] I'm not sure that's it though, that explains this but their focus here is on supply side economics. You know, red tape, Sandeep, much more of a Republican issue like deregulation is kind of what we're talking about here, aren't we?

[00:05:21] So what the fuck is going on here? Why are we seeing this change? We've talked about this before but I don't think you've adequately or to my satisfaction at least answered why. What is going on?

[00:05:33] Look, this is an urbanist issue, right? It's very much squarely part of the kind of urbanist agenda of trying to create conditions that allow for construction of an abundance of housing, right? And that's the kind of, I think, the motivation and the political thrust that's sort of driving this.

[00:05:55] I don't think these sorts of issues map super well onto a left-right axis, right? Or a left-center versus center axis. Though to some extent they do as we've talked about the politics of urbanism has been to a significant extent coming from the left and I think there's a certain amount of historically in recent election cycles a certain amount of skepticism to some of the more ambitious urbanism.

[00:06:25] And I think that's one of the most important issues in urbanism, and I think that's one of the most important issues in urbanism. And I think that's one of the most important issues in urbanism is the fact that there are so many urbanist ideas coming from the center of it. Though I don't think there's anything inherent about these ideas that map them onto that axis.

[00:06:34] Yeah, I mean, I think this is representative more of the fact that there's been a huge move in the city and probably in other cities as well on similar issues around design review.

[00:06:46] I think that the idea that these unelected boards should be able to just kind of whine over aspects of a project that are not really going to impact the general public like the size of parking spaces in the parking garage or whether, again, like whether the brick is black or off black.

[00:07:06] You know, I think I think it's just you know it's seen as an impediment to housing. And I think that concern for housing has become really paramount in the city, you know, as housing prices have spiked.

[00:07:17] And you know and I will say like what was interesting at this meeting the other day which I watched the city council had a hearing on this and the people that were testifying like there were developers for sure.

[00:07:27] But there are also just like regular people showing up and just saying you know this is ridiculous like I you know one guy showed up and he said I own a house in District 2, and I want more neighbors and I want to get rid of these you know sort of silly impediments to having more neighbors in my neighborhood like design review and you know

[00:07:46] I mean, and last thing is you know this is this is downtown where you know I kind of mentioned the city has been putting you know all its focus. I think it would be a very different thing if this was a proposal out in the neighborhoods and Meritzer Rivera who has been you know very much like a you know preserve the character of the neighborhoods type of candidate anyway has really legislated on it but

[00:08:07] you know she kind of brought that up and she was like you know I feel a little more comfortable with this because it's such a limited geographic area.

[00:08:13] Erica, I will just point out that you use the phrase somewhat dismissively these unelected boards. Again, you know I somebody's got to play the role of you know architect here today and I'll just point out you don't say that we're talking about civilian police oversight do you I mean do you really have a problem with

[00:08:31] unelected boards of all types or just in cases where you don't like what they do I mean I mean let's be consistent here son deep and Erica for once.

[00:08:39] I mean it's not as it's not as though the Community Police Commission which I've written a lot about recently has a lot of power had the meat you okay true that's true and you know and I don't think that there is any call and I'm not calling for these boards to be elected but they also don't have the

[00:08:55] power to for example you know say let's fire all the you know police officers that have over you know X number of sustained complaints I mean they can they can recommend policy but they don't have the kind of power that these design review boards

[00:09:08] have design review review boards can literally delay projects for months and months and months adding you know hundreds of thousands of dollars onto the cost of housing and actually indirectly increase the rents of people who are going to live in those apartment

[00:09:22] units significantly so I would say right the design review process is being you know sort of surfaced more and I think people more people are aware of it but this is not a process that like that most people pay a whole lot of attention to

[00:09:35] it and these folks have so much power over housing in our city rightly most of us have better things to do than pay attention to stuff like this but Eric at my question for you I still I still think so your problem is that they're coming up

[00:09:49] with the works not that they're unelected is what you're saying but let me just ask well I know I mean my problem is also that they they have a tremendous amount of power compared to other volunteer citizen boards so I don't think it's it's directly comparable

[00:10:02] so we know we've known that there is a huge housing supply problem in Seattle and that's part of the reason why we're in this mess and actually I mean I think some of those politics are actually important to think about because that's partly why we're where we are

[00:10:18] I mean it was the left and the right kind of consensus in Seattle for a long time that building more housing was something that we just simply didn't want to do and that's why we're in this problem but how do we know that this in particular the design review is actually going to help

[00:10:32] what is the evidence for that Eric C Barnett evidence based journalist and I also went here from Sandy when you're done well it's hard to prove a negative so we don't know for sure if it's going to really help I mean there's a lot of challenges in downtown particularly

[00:10:45] and you know getting more residential housing downtown particularly you know we have lots of office buildings that are vacant that could very theoretically be turned into housing for example so we don't know but what we do know is that design review as a tremendous amount to

[00:11:02] hundreds of thousands of dollars to housing just to the whole process you know they have to hire architects they have to hire lawyers you know land use attorneys and the city itself charges I heard today $475 an hour for a planner and that goes straight to the developer

[00:11:18] and so all of that adds to the cost of housing so you know reducing the cost of housing reducing the time and cost to build housing can only be you know a spur to development it cannot be the opposite and so getting rid of you know I mean it's a three year experiment

[00:11:33] and so we will see what the impact downtown specifically is but getting rid of red tape as you put it you know is you know is a way of making housing happen faster and more cheaply.

[00:11:44] Yeah look I think there's actually a lot of evidence available to us that shows us that design review is a costly and lengthy process right that that raises the cost of projects maybe tilts the balance against some projects even going forward in Seattle because they don't pencil because

[00:12:05] of all the upfront costs of moving forward stuff I was talking with Jesse Clausen who is a land use attorney a prominent land use attorney in town at McCulloch Hill she's a partner there and she does an enormous amount of design review work and the number she was giving to me

[00:12:23] where you know a typical project that has to go through the divine review process you can't even get through that the whole process and get to the project going it takes about 800 days right to get those projects done and through the process that's not all design review but it adds a significant length and delay and time factor to the whole thing.

[00:12:48] What's your what's your source for that.

[00:12:50] That was I got that from from Jesse Clausen who is a like I said a partner at McCulloch Hill and does an enormous amount of design review work for her firm.

[00:13:00] How do we know I mean why should our listeners trust that as a source we're always talking about evidence based I mean how do we know she's she's got that number right.

[00:13:07] Look let me put it there are advocates aren't they aren't they advocates for this reform.

[00:13:11] Of course they are we trust advocates to let me answer your question.

[00:13:14] I have a good answer your question.

[00:13:16] David look Jesse Clausen makes an enormous amount of money off of doing design review cases and so what she said to me is look we make it we and the architects make a ton of money off this process and we're still against it because it's so stupid she says it adds about $500,000 to the cost of every project that they do.

[00:13:37] She's like look I'm going to lose money if this stuff goes forward but it but it's the right thing to do and in fact she said to me like I think really I think the line was I think all the design review work I've done bought my boss a Porsche.

[00:13:52] Yeah, actually while you were David since I didn't know you were going to a fact check on us I just did a quick fact check whilst on even talking springing happens all the time.

[00:14:01] Yeah, yeah.

[00:14:02] Okay, okay.

[00:14:03] And so I'm going to spring a fact check on you which is that it is 805 days as of 2020 according to the consultant Eco Northwest to do.

[00:14:12] Eco Northwest.

[00:14:14] Eco Northwest wait a minute are we talking about the independent consultant firm based in Portland will am at week did a story recently about an eco Northwest study of alcohol taxes in Oregon that may have been deeply flawed a CDC researcher later said the report leaned heavily on

[00:14:31] research of questionable scientific quality.

[00:14:33] Well this is a number of funded by the alcohol industry.

[00:14:36] Well, I'm just saying like we were talking about being evidence based this is an advocacy organization that you're citing I've seen it in the press.

[00:14:43] Well I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad you're familiar with this one David but absolutely there we go.

[00:14:47] So you're saying that you think that Eco Northwest and Jesse Klassen are making up the number of days.

[00:14:52] No I didn't say that at all.

[00:14:53] I don't have the time to do the research and tell us you're going to bring this on.

[00:14:57] I want to know my actual if you want to know my actual opinion I really do think it's absurd that projects take as long as they do in Seattle and we obviously need to do something about the housing supply again just playing the role of

[00:15:07] architect here and trying to insert some skepticism into our conversation.

[00:15:12] I don't know that any architect would question I mean maybe they would question the number of days but I think they would question more the value of design review would say look it's it's valuable because we can, you know, get projects to look

[00:15:24] more you know in line with the character of a neighborhood we can improve the aesthetics and you know and that this is an important part of the process because it results in better projects that would be the architect.

[00:15:36] It may well be that it's 808 or five days I'm just saying I'm not 100% sure that that's the case but let me ask you this why hotels.

[00:15:44] I can reserve a three and a half star hotel in downtown Seattle on hot wire right now for $99 at a night like why is this even a part of it.

[00:15:52] Well we do need more hotels because we have a major tourism industry in the city of Seattle and certainly during the summer months I was just reading that our hotels are back up to like, essentially full capacity.

[00:16:07] You know, and are being kind of stretched to the limits but in other words tourism has come back like gangbusters since the pandemic.

[00:16:13] It's a major driver of our economy, a major driver of downtown you know those tourists who are coming here particularly for cruise ships and stuff will spend an extra couple days.

[00:16:22] They'll go on the you know underground tour they'll go to restaurants and shops stay in hotels right.

[00:16:28] Why is it separate legislation though.

[00:16:30] Why does it have to be bundled into this.

[00:16:32] Can I say something about hotels.

[00:16:33] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:16:34] Yeah, well I you know I just to fact check you I don't know what three and a half star hotel you're looking at but I'm looking at newer hotels on hotwire.com and I'm seeing 300 400 $500 there's definitely demand for and you're and you're not talking about the red lion getting built in downtown Seattle I mean I just I think that you're

[00:16:54] It's hotwire so you never know what it's going to be until you actually get the hotel.

[00:16:58] Sponsor is hotwire.

[00:17:00] Yeah, I just I don't know I mean yeah hotels.

[00:17:03] It's Expedia they're here in downtown Seattle they should they should they should sponsor us.

[00:17:07] Do we really need more hotels and I and I asked it like which is what does that have to do with this other legislation it seems like it's being snuck in the door by the hospitality industry Sunday like why are we you know housing and hotels are separate issues why are they bundled together.

[00:17:22] I don't think it's being snuck in by the hospitality industry I think that that the you know city officials and city planners are looking at what are the drivers of our downtown economy these days and and what are the things that we can do to help spur, you know an increase in in economic activity as we come back from the pandemic and

[00:17:42] you know this stuff makes perfect sense life sciences are a huge industry in Seattle and our big driver of our local economy they create lots of jobs well paid jobs knowledge economy jobs so we should be encouraging more of that that's great right and that makes perfect

[00:17:57] sense tourism is a huge driver of our economy and creates lots of jobs across the you know income spectrum.

[00:18:03] In Seattle our hotels are kind of strained to the brink so we should be encouraging you know more tourism and more infrastructure and capacity to do that I mean I think that the logic of this is the policy logic of this is pretty impeccable and as I said this is a cut this is one of the things in the suite of sort of small ball

[00:18:26] proposals that the that the city sort of made about kind of reimagining downtown as not just a place where people commute to work five days a week but as a broader sort of arts and cultural and you know vibrant kind of kind of

[00:18:44] real-life area it's what are the things that are going to drive that bringing more people living downtown creating more opportunities to support ecosystem of restaurants and entertainment and you know theater and all of that kind of stuff and and these are the

[00:18:58] sort of building blocks to do that. Yeah I mean I guess I don't understand with that you know besides the counter argument that I sort of gave a devil's advocate version of that you know that the buildings will be more beautiful if they you know have to sit in design review for

[00:19:11] months and months on end. I don't really know what the counter argument against this is unless it's just you know we don't like corporations making money well okay but it's downtown Seattle. I mean there are many paths downtown could go but one of them is that it empties out

[00:19:25] and I do definitely see the arguments as Sandeep does that you know that we can't like really just let that happen now I don't think we should focus on downtown to the exclusion of all the other neighborhoods. You know we've discussed forcing people to go back to work

[00:19:39] I don't think that's the way but yeah I mean if it's if it's just lifting design review for a few years to see what happens it just seems like a no brainer to me and you know and I think the arguments against it are pretty pretty thin there was there was an argument made by a

[00:20:05] I just I found to be kind of a bizarre argument because you know that zoned capacity argument is like is basically what it means is you know if I have a house and there could be six units here if I you know moved out of my house and tore it down.

[00:20:19] Those are those are imaginary units. I mean there's a reason stuff doesn't get built to 100% capacity but there's this huge argument about this in this couple paragraphs long argument in this central staff memo and it was just it was just bizarre and Sarah Nelson

[00:20:34] Council President actually came with receipts and numbers to this week's meeting and and sort of cut that memo down a little bit to size and I was you know I was I was pretty impressed by that you know she she was like look this this doesn't make sense and here's some counter numbers for you so it was interesting debate.

[00:20:54] Did I did I just hear Erica Varnette phrase Sarah Nelson frigging the in public.

[00:20:59] Yeah yeah and my article on this as well right and take it on take it on a dumb central staff memo argument or whatever.

[00:21:09] Well it's pretty rare to see a central staff memo like really make a political argument the way this one did so it definitely.

[00:21:17] I don't know how rare.

[00:21:22] Well anyway yeah but zone capacity I find you both extremely persuasive on this I will say I have one other question which is and you you referenced it here what do we lose when we lose design review Erica I see a bunch of well informed anecdotes and you're reporting talking about all the silly shit when it comes to design review but they're just

[00:21:41] they're just anecdotes and we know that anecdotes really prove anything so tell us why we wouldn't want to have design review like isn't the city ugly enough I just got back from you know it's ugly.

[00:21:54] The city of Boston David it's ugly with design review so that to me is is evidence that design review does not beautify the city.

[00:22:03] You know I think I think Erica is 100% right on this.

[00:22:07] Neither of you were philosophy majors and neither was I but I think there's a problem with this one I have to say what you're saying because the evidence is clear the city's ugly anyway so who cares.

[00:22:19] No I look I'm responding to your to your argument that that you know design review has never worked to beautify the city in any way.

[00:22:27] I think there's an argument here that design review in many cases actually blandifies these projects it makes them all they all kind of come out the other end of this process you know kind of you know carbon copies right that

[00:22:57] their own sort of set that's your buddy developers fault I mean because they look at the standards and they come up with cookie cutter buildings and then we're bored of them and design.

[00:23:05] I mean actually change that sorry go ahead yeah having actually watched his process many times over many many years of covering you know development in the city.

[00:23:15] You know I think that one thing that you should know is that the word design is very misleading.

[00:23:20] A lot of times what they're doing is saying you know oh there's going to be a shadow that's one foot too tall and so you have to make you know this this this sort of design element that you built into your building to make it look a little more unique.

[00:23:32] Gotta take that out.

[00:23:34] Oh the landscaping is oriented in the wrong direction to the sidewalk and so this safe way is not going to you know this massive safe way with a massive surface parking lot is not going to you know be oriented have its trees oriented the right direction for all the pedestrians are going to be walking by on the sidewalk

[00:23:50] and so let's discuss that and come back with more plans I mean it is almost always I mean I won't say almost always I haven't watched every design review meeting obviously there are so many examples that I have observed just happen stance watching design review

[00:24:05] I mean I remember one where a building you know all these elements I think this is one that Jesse Klassen worked on Sunday.

[00:24:12] All these elements that that kept getting stripped out were things that like you would want as a renter like there was a rooftop space you know for people to be outdoors and have some outdoor space and gather and have friends over and that was stripped away because it during design review because the neighbors thought that people would be out partying late at night because they were you know dirty renters and all the neighbors were homeless.

[00:24:35] And they were like we don't want these kind of people partying and making noise all night.

[00:24:39] And so that was removed so no more rooftop spaces just a blank roof there were balconies that were removed for very similar reasons.

[00:24:47] I believe like it turned into kind of a wedding cake stair step style project or certainly a lot of them have because you know people have concerns like homeowners have concerns about their tomatoes in their yards to use a classic example.

[00:25:00] You know being shadowed by these horrible apartment buildings so it's just it is so often just nimby ism it's not like it's not like oh the developers came with a cookie cutter design and the architects forced them to make it beautiful I don't think I've ever seen that happen.

[00:25:14] Just because you can deliver a hilarious barrage of anecdotes of terrible design review ridiculous does not mean does not mean listeners that there are no good examples of design review as Eric would point us out to us if this topic were about something else.

[00:25:31] Anticodes do not make a point here.

[00:25:33] But I'm just saying I think you're misleading listeners by saying design because it's not really design it's often neighbor concerns.

[00:25:39] You're bringing up like Feng Shui kind of stuff you know it's got to go one way not the other.

[00:25:44] I mean that matters.

[00:25:46] We got to get our shockers aligned but anyway you know my I shouldn't admit this but the house I'm built in I live in was actually built by a Feng Shui consultant so I feel like I paid 100 grand to get my shockers aligned.

[00:26:03] Yes it is.

[00:26:04] Yeah yeah she was a Feng Shui consultant something as well as this you know house rehabber right you know anyway.

[00:26:12] Do you feel like the extra hundred thousand dollars that you spent personally going to design review was worth it.

[00:26:17] Yeah yeah that's right.

[00:26:19] That's right.

[00:26:19] Well the Feng Shui is excellent at my house.

[00:26:23] Who could who could argue against that.

[00:26:24] I mean I think there's a larger point here which is that David to what you're asking which is that there are a lot of bureaucratic and regulatory processes in Seattle that are rooted in good intentions right.

[00:26:38] You know hey we want to make sure you know that we're getting you know good architecture and attractive looking you know projects and buildings in Seattle and that we don't get you know monstrosities you know piled up on on top.

[00:26:54] Of the other that's that's a good intention but like a lot of these processes they get kind of taken over by you know these these kind of you know activist types who have a who push things too far and then you end up in a process where you know they're nitpicking as Eric I said the color of the tiles on you know somebody's project

[00:27:21] and it's adding hundreds of thousands of dollars to the cost of building it and making the project not pencil and that seems counterproductive and silly.

[00:27:30] And I do want to also just for context point out that there are all kinds of other codes and processes that these buildings have to meet and go through so it's not you know as if design review has nothing to do with for example like the height of a project that you know that's the zoning code.

[00:27:47] There are building codes that say you know how many stairways you have to have and you know there's life safety and all kinds of things that are still being you know that still developers have to go through this is just one element in the process that tends to bog it down on these you know I would say very strange concerns around around fitting in with you know incumbent buildings and stuff like that.

[00:28:11] And I'm not and I'm not sure I haven't been here since the beginning of design review but I sort of doubt that there is a Halcyon time if that's how you say that word.

[00:28:21] You know when everything worked great and there was no problem with the process and and NIMBY ISM wasn't a factor because it just seems like NIMBY ISM is just built into the very structure of having a bunch of architects.

[00:28:34] You know and often activist architects responding to community and enforcing people to change little things about their buildings.

[00:28:43] That'll make sense to me that makes it to me my question is though are we are we letting city review off the hook a little bit here or you know or are you saying no there's there's also a lot of other.

[00:28:56] Is is everything the city does both necessary and done in a timely and efficient way to get these projects moving my sense is no how come we're not focusing on that as much as we are on this unelected board of civilian.

[00:29:13] Well.

[00:29:14] God damn volunteers.

[00:29:16] No they're not.

[00:29:17] They're not income.

[00:29:18] Those fuckers.

[00:29:18] That's somebody else's word but you know.

[00:29:20] Those grassroots motherfuckers.

[00:29:23] Who will stop them from.

[00:29:25] So we'll stop these like great volunteers.

[00:29:28] Yeah.

[00:29:28] Should there be more of a focus.

[00:29:31] Should there be more of a focus on some of these others.

[00:29:34] I mean we've talked about historic review as well.

[00:29:38] Right.

[00:29:38] I was going to bring that up.

[00:29:39] But like what about all the other stuff that slows things back up or you know is is is enforced the letter of the law like you know does every setback need to be enforced or I don't know.

[00:29:52] I don't even know what I'm talking about.

[00:29:53] So well again I know what a setback is.

[00:29:56] That's right.

[00:29:56] I mean going back to you brought up the example of you know historical landmark agesidation and long time Seattle nice listeners will remember we did an episode on that a couple of years ago and it's one thing when you're taking a really

[00:30:11] historically significant architecturally you know you know unique building and say you know what when it's Grand Central Station is going to get torn down and there's an effort.

[00:30:21] No no no this is historically significant.

[00:30:23] You can't just tear down this this this important piece.

[00:30:26] That's one thing.

[00:30:27] It's a whole another thing when you're like you know the fucking you know drive through bank in Queen Anne needs to get historical present.

[00:30:35] That's what I mean about this slippage where you have these boards that suddenly started push things to kind of pass the line where they become absurd and you're suddenly land marking the most mundane stupid shit and adding huge costs to you know build out the city

[00:30:54] to directly to answer that question about you know efficiency and speed I mean certainly not you know there was a there was an audit that I covered on publicola.

[00:31:02] I believe late last year that found that you know the city's permitting department behaved really inconsistently and you know delayed some reviews while exbiting others and you know there are there all kinds of issues.

[00:31:15] But you know that I think that we can do two things at once and you know and improve permitting times even as you know we make some of those parts of that process you know unnecessary like like design review.

[00:31:28] And I will note you know OPCD and SDCI those are the two kind of permitting and planning departments are slated for potentially really big cuts in November when the city adopts its 2025 budget so you know if you don't have people who can move

[00:31:44] those permits through you know you're never you're not going to get an expedited process you know and so so I mean that's that that that could be a real problem.

[00:31:54] Right we are a long long long way from being say Houston right which famously has as you know no zoning and it's really easy to build there and you know and and consequently now that has led to a lot of sprawling Houston right a lot of

[00:32:11] that there have been negative consequences but it's also kept the price of housing low right because they they have a low regulation kind of environment when you're when you're when you're building we're even with this downtown core design review moratorium.

[00:32:25] We are still a highly highly regulated process focused bureaucratic you know restrictive zoning kind of environment for for building in Seattle which is a significant part of the reason why it's so expensive to build shit here.

[00:32:46] And if we want to try to increase affordability if that's a real value we got to address that admit it and address that.

[00:32:53] Whether that's you know Democratic or Republican or conservative or moderate or you know lefty or whatever the fuck it is it's sort of the right thing to do.

[00:33:03] All right.

[00:33:04] Right in listeners with your labels on this episode.

[00:33:08] We're looking forward to them.

[00:33:10] And if you're if you're an ungrateful volunteer right in and tell us what you think.

[00:33:17] Now just kidding.

[00:33:18] Activists who we've maligned.

[00:33:22] Yeah sorry.

[00:33:29] All right let's just do a used to be called a kicker back in the day.

[00:33:34] Last week the King County Council voted on the juvenile detention center commonly known is it this.

[00:33:40] The youth jail because we understand what that means we don't understand what juvenile detention center means for some reason but anyway people you know pundits people seem to have thought that this vote is significant in some way.

[00:33:54] Who wants to take a crack at that.

[00:33:56] Is it is it a significant vote I guess is the question Erica C Barnett.

[00:33:59] Yeah I mean I think it's a significant vote even though it is non binding and it's just the council the county council basically expressing its opinion that the jail the the kitty jail.

[00:34:12] The youth jail will need to stay open you know unless something radically changes or there's a new proposal or something of that nature.

[00:34:20] But but yeah the fact that it was unanimous including vote from Kiermaa Zahili the council member who you know came out very strongly in support of closing the jail I mean I think it just you know it just signals that we're we're in a different era and you know basically

[00:34:37] you know everything that was sort of proposed during 2020.

[00:34:42] You know unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you look at it has been eradicated so you know we're not we're not deep policing we're not really funding things other than police.

[00:34:53] You know we've got a tiny department that will respond to some calls along with police and there's no talk anymore of closing the downtown jail unless we of course built another one in South downtown first.

[00:35:07] And the idea of closing the youth jail is also off the table and just really quickly I mean it's not it wasn't ever just closing the jail I mean I think that the proposals that were being floated.

[00:35:19] And there was a whole process I mean this went on for years where there's a committee meeting to come up with ideas they were you know to find more humane alternatives for people who do need to be removed from society for you know some period of time so there was never just

[00:35:34] to let them all out you know open the doors and let them free kind of proposal but but yeah that's just kind of a signal that all of that is gone now.

[00:35:43] Right I think there's several super interesting layers to that as as Erica pointed out kind of interesting unanimous 80 vote right the one council member count county council member that wasn't there was Teresa Mosqueda who was out quote unquote sick but I you know I wouldn't be and maybe

[00:36:01] you know for all I probably was sick right but would be the first time like you know council member may have you know had an opportunity to avoid a sort of politically difficult vote that

[00:36:39] you know I and the policy on one level the politics of it are super interesting.

[00:36:42] He's told me very clearly he's been hearing from a lot of you know elders in the you know East African community and communities of color communities down in the south end who have been expressing a lot of concern about public safety and feel like some of the sort of abolitionist

[00:37:01] moves of as Erica said 2020 have not served them in their communities very well and so he's listening to them and and you know credit to him on that right abolitionist moves that never took place I mean none of these things ever got implemented so

[00:37:16] what was interesting though was that I was really surprised to see Dow Constantine the King County exec who had initially committed to closing the U jail by 2025 and then it was 2028 but after this 80 vote actually then pushed back on it and I'm not quite sure what what what I was I was surprised by that I was like Dow was like this is the wrong move we should still he's

[00:37:38] still committed to wanting to close the U jail and I will say he's not running for reelection is he's not running for reelection but it seems like I just think it's a look I think the push to close the youth jail the movement to do it the effort to do it the fact that it

[00:37:53] got as far as I thought it was I will just say it flat out I thought it was the the the the stupidest you know but political controversy we've had out of all of them in in in Seattle in recent years it just it was nonsense I think Reagan done called it a fantasy that we could live entirely

[00:38:18] without any kind of youth incarceration and I think that that's right I mean we're taping this on Thursday just yesterday on Wednesday in Atlanta 14 year old or or or in Georgia a 14 year old shot up a school and killed four people what do you do with that kid right the alternative

[00:38:36] if you don't have a youth jail is you put them in with the adult population which is I mean I'm gonna just break in because you're you're spinning a fantasy here I mean I watched some of the meetings of the the task force which I'm blanking on the name of right now but the task

[00:38:51] course that was designed to come up with alternatives to youth incarceration not you know not just throw them in the adult jail I don't think anybody has ever proposed that so I think that's that's a well in Seattle putting 14 year olds in adult jail it was not on the table before

[00:39:06] you know 2020 and it's not on the table now but you know but they they did spend several years coming up with proposals and recommendations and you know the fact that the council rejected those recommendations does not mean that those proposals did not exist or were just you know proposals to close down the jail

[00:39:23] and never jail anybody and if people have to be jailed put them in the adult jail nobody made that argument Sunday but that's just that's just fantastic what do you do what do you do with the kids so look a kid just got got killed by another kid at Garfield High School couple months ago right gun down and broad daylight right what do you do with that

[00:39:42] I mean you sound like the argument from the from the if I can finish my point and then you can jump in sorry I thought you were asking a question the argument is that that we need to put those we need to put that kid we can't we can't put put that kid into a

[00:39:59] you know locked room setting and that they need to kind of live in some community I mean that doesn't really make I don't think that ever makes

[00:40:06] I don't think that you're very familiar with the proposals I don't think that I think that one of the issues with the youth jail in particular is that kids are being locked in concrete cells for you know for 24 days sometimes because staffing is so low that you know that they're just sort of not getting an education not getting outdoor time

[00:40:26] and you know and sort of being stuck in a cell most of their time and that is incredibly damaging to a 14 year old I don't care if they've killed you know somebody they're still a 14 year old I mean it sounds like your alternative is yeah let's just throw them in with the adults

[00:40:42] because they're a lost cause and fuck them. No no no this is where I'm in agreement with you that if we're talking about making the youth jail more about rehabilitation and support and help that and to the extent they're not doing that not just in the

[00:40:59] youth jail but in the adult jail I've said it before I'll say it again I think that's scandalous and bad and terrible and a total wasted opportunity to actually try to help people rather than just warehouse them and lock them up

[00:41:13] alright we're gonna have to leave it there that's it for another edition of Seattle Nice he's Sandeep Koushik she's Erica C Barnett I'm David Hyde our editor is Quinn Waller and thanks everybody so much for listening

[00:41:29] you