Emergency Edition: Seattle Police Chief Shon Barnes Refuses to Resign, Then Does

[00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the latest edition of Seattle Nice, the only podcast that tells you what's really happening in Seattle politics. I'm David Hyde with Erica C. Barnett of Publicola. Hello, Erica. Hello. Is this an emergency edition? Oh, shoot. Yeah, emergency edition of the podcast. And political consultant Sandeep Kaushik. Hello, Sandeep. Yes. Hello. Double secret, extra heavy duty emergency edition. Yes.

[00:00:36] On today's show, Publicola reporting that Seattle Police Chief Sean Barnes may be on his way out. That news follows the shooting at Seattle Center that left three people dead, including a 19 year old suspect and several people injured, including a toddler. Barnes was out of town at a conference in Dallas, Erica, and was taking a lot of heat for that. So it is Thursday morning. What do we know about the status?

[00:01:05] Of Chief Sean Barnes at this moment? Yeah, I just want to interject that, you know, Barnes being out of town at a conference in Dallas is something that I first reported on Blue Sky and then on Publicola. So people should check those stories out and check out my Blue Sky for updates, which are still coming in right now as we're recording. Situation now on Thursday morning is that Barnes is apparently still police chief.

[00:01:34] He was apparently asked to resign last night. Rumors were flying and I was up reporting until about 11 o'clock trying to get more information. But I heard from numerous sources in City Hall that Barnes was seen entering the mayor's office and leaving a couple hours later.

[00:01:56] And the mayor's office at this point and we're recording. I'm going to timestamp this because it's about 1045 on Thursday morning. Mayor's office has not said a word about this yet, which means that from the time that the rumors, you know, started flying around about five o'clock yesterday to now is, you know, almost 18 hours with not a word from the mayor.

[00:02:21] And I think that is a very, very bad look. So we'll see what happens from here. But, you know, and we can talk more about what his refusal to resign means. Yeah, let's do that in a minute. But Sandeep, I know you have some thoughts about how the mayor's office has been handling this so far. Well, God, I'm where to start. I'm not sure. I mean, first of all, yes, the situation is incredibly fluid, right? Evolving by the minute.

[00:02:45] Who knows what we're going to find out in the next 15 minutes about this. There was, as Erica says, that's my understanding, too. And very similar, Erica, I got my initial text. I just texted somebody texted me at 422 yesterday afternoon saying, are you hearing what I'm hearing that, you know, Barnes is out? And this is somebody outside of City Hall. And of course, I started making calls to people and hearing started and then rumors just started swirling.

[00:03:16] And it's been going nonstop ever since about what exactly is going on. I talked to somebody on the second floor last night who was like, yeah. That's city council. Yeah, the city council. Yeah. Just in case people don't know. Yeah, Barnes is out. And, you know, but I was like, have you confirmed that? Have you heard that from the mayor's office? Well, no, the mayor's office hasn't said, you know. And so it's like, what the fuck is actually going on here?

[00:03:42] And have you made a decision? And apparently what seems to have happened is, as Erica says, the mayor was trying to push Barnes to resign. He said no and instead has started rallying support for himself. So there was a kind of a black, a number of organizations, the black community had an early morning rally at City Hall in his defense, right? The NAACP, Urban League, a number of other organizations, I think were involved in that.

[00:04:12] I think there are other folks that are kind of coming to his defense. I'm hearing talk that the council may publicly make some statements or at least some council members. So that's unclear to me what's going to happen on that front. So this is a kind of festering situation that's pitting now the mayor's office, which has gone silent against a defiant police chief. You know, I mean.

[00:04:42] Well, the mayor, to be clear, the mayor has the right to fire the police chief. And, you know, the last mayor, Bruce Harrell, did fire the last police chief and then hired Sean Barnes. And he did so, you know, for whatever reason, Adrian Diaz, I guess, was more cooperative, you know, partly because he was under a pretty heavy fire at the time, too, for a variety of reasons that we've discussed and don't need to get into. But, you know, they did a press conference together and the mayor basically said, I've accepted his resignation.

[00:05:11] And it was kind of, you know, a moment where Diaz cried and it all seemed very coordinated. Right now, it just kind of seems like chaos as we're recording this, because, you know, as Sandeep said, I mean, it sounds like the police chief is defiant and the mayor isn't just saying, you know what? Sorry, you're fired. This had been building, right, Eric and Sandeep, for a while. You know, this isn't the first we've heard of Sean Barnes, just to remind people who haven't been paying that much attention.

[00:05:39] I mean, you've been writing in Publicola about Sean Barnes for quite a while and saying some pretty negative things about him. So, I mean, is this something that the mayor was kind of possibly wanting to do? And now here this Seattle Center shooting happened and this was the opportunity to do it? Or, I mean, is there any sense of why now beyond the Seattle Center shooting? Or is that pretty much it? Yeah, I mean, the mayor was under pressure to fire Barnes from kind of the very beginning. I mean, mayors tend to choose their own police chiefs.

[00:06:07] That isn't always the case, but it's not unusual for a new mayor to choose a new police chief. She didn't do that. She stuck with Barnes. And the word was kind of, you know, she's going to see how it goes and maybe wait six months or so. Well, we're at seven months. And I think some of the performance issues that I've identified, you know, and I wouldn't say I've written negative stuff about him so much as negative stuff has happened.

[00:06:29] Like the fact that he, you know, under him, SPD cracked down pretty heavily on the LGBTQ community at Denny Blaine at a protest, a counter protest against an anti-trans rally. The cops basically sided with the anti-trans folks and were pretty violent to the counter protesters. SPD is being sued by a bunch of people for anti-LGBTQ discrimination.

[00:06:55] There's reports that his chief of staff, who's basically his deputy and longtime friend, you know, made comments the effect of, you know, we don't care about the gays. And so, I mean, there's been a lot of stuff swirling on that side. And then I've also reported since last year about his very frequent absences from the city of Seattle.

[00:07:16] His entire family lives in Chicago and he maintains a family home there while also renting an apartment here. So, and travels a lot. I reported last year he was out of town for more than a quarter of the time during his first four months.

[00:07:34] And then I reported yesterday, Wednesday, that he has been out of town for at least 47 days of the last 105 or so for this year and also out of the office for more than that. So, I mean, he is, he's kind of an absentee in a lot of ways. And I think people have, you know, finally kind of responded to that when it became clear he was not in town when this shooting happened.

[00:08:01] And I think that contributed to, you know, very late response, you know, very late information getting out. And the press was pretty pissed about that. At least TV reporters certainly were. Well, look, there's been pressure from day one since Katie Wilson took office and even before she took office to oust Barnes, right? And, you know, some of the criticism at Erica's point, I think is well placed.

[00:08:26] I think there are questions about his sort of absenteeism, you know, issue and travels and stuff like that. You know, but there has been a kind of desire on the left to see Barnes ousted, you know, from the get-go, right? But the mayor resisted that pressure. And as recently as, I don't know when, it was like barely more than a week ago, Erica, when you, two weeks ago, when you interviewed the mayor, she, you asked her that question. And she said, I am retaining Sean Barnes, right? I mean, she made a pretty.

[00:08:54] And as I said at the time, just sorry to interject, but as I said at the time, I thought that was a very tentative statement. And I kind of didn't buy it, but that is what, those were her words. Those were her words. And I did, I subsequently heard from people in our office who said, yes, that is, she said it and she meant it. She intends to retain Sean Barnes. And so this bite of Seattle situation obviously has changed that calculus for her.

[00:09:18] And here's what I have gleaned from what I've heard over the last 24 hours about why she may have changed her thinking about this. Which is, as we all know, the response to the bite of Seattle shootings were less than, you know, perfect. It did not, did not go well. And from the initial, the initial response, there was a five hour delay before they held that press conference at 11 p.m.

[00:09:45] to kind of provide information to the media and the public about the shooting. There were a lot of media questions about why did it take you all so long to do this? There were real questions raised because one of the SPD flack said, oh, we have to wait for dignitaries to show up before we can brief you all. So it looked like there was like they're waiting for the governor and Pramila Jayapal to show up before they were actually telling the public about, you know, this kind of dangerous, fluid, evolving circumstance. That's obviously not a good look.

[00:10:13] So what I've heard since is that part of the reason for that five hour delay is that Barnes, who was in Dallas at the time attending a conference, told SVD to hold back on doing the briefing until he was fully briefed on the situation on the ground in Seattle. And that caused probably an hour or more of delay while, you know, the chief was getting briefed up.

[00:10:42] And then I've seen I've also heard that then there was probably an additional half hour or so while they waited for the governor and Pramila Jayapal to show up. And that sort of added a little bit more time to the delay that that was not the bigger factor. It was waiting for Barnes to get briefed up. So if you can see from their perspective, well, SVD, you guys kind of helped exacerbate like kind of the bad reaction to how we've done this.

[00:11:10] But we're the vacuum of information that went on too long. And then the next day, we should say the chief had a meltdown, very public meltdown after press conference when a reporter asked him about Erica's reporting about his, you know, his his absences. And I mean, it almost looked like he was going to punch the dude. Like like he had a very public meltdown in front of the media.

[00:11:37] Someone intervened on his staff to basically kind of pull him away, you know, shut things down. Yeah. Yeah, that was his that was the chief of staff that I mentioned who said that who allegedly made the comment about we're not here for the gays. That was his. So basically his right hand man. Yeah. So you can see those situations why that might might might change the mayor's thinking about this. But I will say the way she is now handling this and her apparent intent to remove Barnes is also not.

[00:12:05] I mean, there's a lot to say there about how how she may be mishandling this. It seems really reactive to me, Erica, in the sense that if there were problems with travel for Barnes earlier or other problems like with his performance, those were legitimate reasons to consider firing him. But like this particular incident, I'm looking at the the panels at this conference. Law enforcement's role in shaping alternatives to incarceration was one of the one of the panel discussions.

[00:12:34] So it's an accident that he happens to be at this particular conference when this shooting happens. Like he's truly not responsible for that. Whatever the press, you know, press's frustration was or how how things were mishandled in Seattle at that moment. It's he wouldn't be fired just for this. I wouldn't think is what I'm kind of getting at. And so then the mayor using this as the moment to fire him seems a little reactive to me. And then to not actually even fire him, it just seems like poor leadership.

[00:13:01] And in a certain sense, it sure looks like an effort to kind of pass the buck because there were questions being raised, you know, about Mayor Wilson's response and surveillance cameras. And here now we're changing the subject to Sean Barnes and kind of not talking about those issues. So I think there are plenty of questions to ask, as you've done, about Sean Barnes and his performance. But aren't there also questions here about the way Wilson's handled this, which just seems terrible? Well, so you raised a bunch of things. So I want to go from from the top, the conferences.

[00:13:30] Barnes constantly being at conferences should have been an issue. That is not the job of a police chief. A lot of times he's giving keynote speeches going to he took two conferences this year. At including the one at the at this Association of Black Law Enforcement Executives, which is called Noble. He was at two conferences this year. You know, he's often, you know, going to, you know, in addition to going to his family home in Chicago, you know, doing these kind of I mean, I'm just going to call them some vanity things.

[00:14:00] I don't know that it's normal for a police chief to spend weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks out of every year off at conferences when he's supposed to be sort of on the ground here in Seattle. Yeah. Yeah. Just to be clear, like I'm agreeing with you on that. I'm saying this particular conference, though, seems like one we would actually want the police chief to attend. Yeah, I think taking too much time away means that this conference was not an accident because he's, you know, he's out of town like a third of the time. So, I mean, there are fair.

[00:14:27] Those are fairly good odds that when a major incident happens, he's going to be out of town. And during the summer, I mean, that is the time typically when, you know, when violent incidents happen in this city because people are out, you know, kids are out of school, et cetera. I mean, so to be out of town during, you know, major events is noteworthy. And yeah, I mean, I don't think we know.

[00:14:53] I think it is actually jumping the gun a little bit to say that she fired him over this, you know, the fact that he was out of town at this conference. I think the incident that Sandeep talked about where, you know, he confronted Connor Nash from the South Seattle Emerald who was asking about my reporting was, you know, it made international news. It embarrassed the city of Seattle, embarrassed the police chief, and thus it embarrassed the mayor. And I think she was extremely pissed about that.

[00:15:18] And so I almost think that that was more the inciting incident than the fact that he happened to be, you know, sitting in a hotel room in Dallas when this happened. And I just want to address one more thing, one or more of the points that David made about surveillance cameras. And we should be talking about that. Surveillance cameras at Seattle Center were never a part of Bruce Harrell's plan to expand real-time crime surveillance cameras throughout the city.

[00:15:44] And so although TV news has been trying to make that the narrative, that was never on the table. And so there were not going to – there are surveillance cameras and there are – and they are collecting video from nearby businesses, which is a long and involved process that I learned a little bit more about this week. There will be surveillance footage, but that was never part of the plan. So it's kind of an off-point issue that, you know, I know Chris Daniels and everybody else loves to talk about it in every context.

[00:16:14] But it just has nothing to do with this particular situation. It may well be – my only point was it's convenient timing if you want to change the topic, whether it's a legitimate issue or not. Look, it's not just the media asking about cameras. There is going to be more – I will just say I think you're going to hear more from a lot of different folks that are supportive of adding cameras, you know, in the wake of this incident.

[00:16:38] But I think we're getting off the – on tangents here because I think the real question is, you know, why – if we agree that they mishandled the whole reaction to the bite of Seattle shootings. And I think there is a wide consensus that it did not go well, how they handled it. There was a five-hour delay. There was Barnes' meltdown there.

[00:17:00] Look, I have heard questions about how the mayor has conducted herself in some of these press conferences and, you know, not really demonstrating full command of the facts. There were contradictory things that got said at some of these press conferences. The cameras were on. We don't – we have some footage and we're going to get it. Oh, no, we don't. There's no cameras. There's no footage. I mean, you know, the initial thing – I don't think they said that.

[00:17:23] Well, the initial thing that the mayor – the initial statement that the mayor put out before the – during the one thing they said after – immediately after the shooting was that two people had been apprehended. That was incorrect. Only one person had – They were referring to the person who was dead among those two people. One was a 15-year-old. That's what my reporting indicates. But agree. They handled it poorly.

[00:17:45] I will say not to get on a tangent, but the way that the media, the mainstream media has covered this has been, I think, quite unfair to the mayor in the sense that – Which is that when Sean Barnes, the police chief, fucked up royally and said that the ghost gun that was found had been fired 14 times and was used in the shooting, he was incorrect.

[00:18:12] And that was a national story. It was in the New York Times that a ghost gun was used to kill two of the people. That was incorrect. And the way it's been reported in the media is just, you know, oh, police say they were wrong. And if Katie Wilson had said that, it would have been – I mean, these minor errors that were made in the first hours after the shooting, it would have been international news, outrage. Every single TV station would be in her face.

[00:18:39] And so I think there's just a disparity in the way people have been covering this. Maybe. I mean, my larger point is that none of them come out looking very good about how this went down in terms of the response. Sean Barnes certainly didn't. I don't think the mayor came off looking all that great either. But then while we're still in this kind of, you know, kind of hothouse atmosphere, there's still a live investigation going on.

[00:19:08] One of the shooters is apparently still, you know, not apprehended. Then in the middle of that, for the mayor to make this move to – David, this is getting back to your earlier question about why now. Like the timing here really looks reactive. It looks kind of flailing. And then it's exacerbated by the fact that – we don't know for sure, but it sounds like she hasn't even fired him yet.

[00:19:36] Like so you fired him, but you didn't fire him in the middle of the investigation at, you know, like what's going on? Yeah, it looks like she was. Why didn't you wait a few days, let shit calm down, like, you know, figure out an exit strategy here for whatever play you want to make. It just looks very, very – I think the word you used, Erica, was chaos. And yeah, it looks very chaotic and that nobody's in control right now. I agree. I do think that you're allowed to fire people for cause.

[00:20:06] And, you know, lunging at a reporter is pretty – I mean, that's pretty untoward behavior. I mean, you know, I'm choosing my words carefully. But, I mean, he did have to be sort of hustled away from this guy. It was a very bad look. I agree with you. To me, that's potentially a fireable offense, especially when it makes, you know, as I said, like the city an absolute embarrassment in, you know, the eyes of the world or at least the people that are paying attention.

[00:20:34] So, you know, I think that that is a – that would have been a reason to potentially fire him. I don't know if that's why. But again, reactive. Yeah, reactive. But I'm saying firing for cause is reactive. That's true. That's true. But, I mean, leadership is make a decision, fire the guy if you want. And, you know, now we've got this rally, as you both are saying. Is she going to now sort of cave in response to that?

[00:21:00] I mean, it's – and it doesn't seem – it seems like this is a little bit of a pattern where whatever your politics are, I think people are feeling a little bit frustrated with this style of leadership where it's a little indecisive. It's a little wishy-washy. And, you know, we don't elect Hamlet to be our mayor, you know? So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is a little Hamlet.

[00:21:23] Like I do think like – and Erica, you started off this episode like it's been 18 hours of silence as these rumors are swirling up. My text and phone has been blowing up all morning with, you know – and the longer this goes on, you know, the more it feeds on itself, right? And there's just – there's a vacuum of like what the fuck is the situation here and what's going on and, you know, right?

[00:21:49] And so, again, like the initial reaction to the bite of Seattle thing seemed like there was too long of a vacuum before information filled it. Now there's this second thing about is he fired? Is he not fired? What is going on? Who's in charge of SVD? Like what – you know, what's going on? Yeah, that also seems like a vacuum, right? And so how it's being handled. Internally, I think it's also bad over there because, you know, I mean this information got out last night.

[00:22:16] None of the comms people have been able to tell me anything. I think that is probably because they also don't know anything. And, you know, we've talked about the sort of internal problems within the mayor's office and I think this is exacerbating that as well.

[00:22:30] It's a side issue but it speaks to, you know, as Sandeep said, I mean this kind of wishy-washy or dithering nature of some of these decisions that are being made is really problematic not just, you know, for the public but internally for the mayor's office and their ability to kind of do their work.

[00:22:52] I will just say I think at this point where you do have what really looks like a defiant police chief who is rallying support against a mayor who wants him gone but hasn't pulled the trigger, so to speak, on – Oh, Bob Kettle says you're not allowed to use this kind of word, Sandeep. Did you hear him? Bob Kettle is the woke police. You're going to stick the woke police on me.

[00:23:18] Yeah, he said you can't say anybody's weaponizing things or using a military metaphor. So you better watch yourself. Oh, it's a militaristic – because it's a militaristic metaphor? Yeah. I'm sure I'm hearing from Bob about it. But love you, Bob. Fight. Yeah. Bob, you're okay. Yeah, that's another battle you'll – that's another battle you'll have to fight, Sandeep. Oh, oh, oh, trigger warning. Oh, shit. That's right. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[00:23:46] I will say I actually heard this – I heard these same questions being raised at my old station. Yeah. It's tough to do politics reporting and never use any of those metaphors is all I'm going to say. Can I just – I'm sorry to sidetrack, but another issue that may be a red herring but I wanted to ask about it because I see it being reported in the TV news, Erica, is this gun violence reduction unit having replaced the gang unit.

[00:24:12] I don't think the gang unit or the gun violence reduction unit can stop every shooting like this. But, I mean, is there something substantive there? Is there something that we should be doing that we're not doing? I realize these are kind of policing questions, but I don't – like any thoughts about those two units from either of you? Because I see it being reported in the media. Yeah. No, I think it's – I mean, I think it's basically a renamed unit that doesn't use the word gang. And a lot of right-wing media really wants to use the word gang.

[00:24:41] I think part of the reason – I think the sort of interpersonal violence that happens and what you would call gang violence because of these affiliated groups, that's a very – it's a loaded term. It's kind of a racist term. I think that that's why they did away with that language. But they're still doing the same work. So I don't know. I think it's a bit of a trumped-up issue. Look, I don't think that whatever the – I don't give a shit what you call the name of the unit. Who cares, right?

[00:25:10] But there is a separate issue that is percolating behind the scenes at City Hall that I think is substantive here. And that is for a while now we have been hearing talk that the city was going to launch some kind of new gun violence reduction initiative, right? And in fact, one of the council members, Council Member Maritza Rivera, pulled together this kind of all-day symposium about – I don't know.

[00:25:38] It was like in June I think, like three or four weeks ago. Brought in these outside folks. There's this criminologist at John Jay College named David Kennedy, very prominent criminologist who's been working on gun violence issues in big cities since the 90s. We actually had him on the other Blue City Blues podcast of last year. But anyway, they had done a big symposium with all of the major electeds, Lisa Mannion, the prosecutor, and all these folks were there for this symposium.

[00:26:06] And Rivera has been arguing that they should do an initiative with these folks, bring them in to advise on a larger gun violence strategy and initiative. And the mayor's office has been pushing back saying they intend to do a gun violence initiative but a different one of a strategy of their own devising that we haven't heard what that is yet.

[00:26:30] And Council Member Rivera was just on – I saw her on King 5 and some other media in the wake of this saying, where is this gun violence reduction initiative? What is the mayor's plan on it? I've made a suggestion about what to do and they've not been willing to do what I want but they're not coming forward with what they're going to do either. So what the fuck is the plan here, right?

[00:26:51] Like that – so I think that is a live thing that's under the – kind of under the radar screen a little bit but though it's starting to pop up in media but has been percolating behind the surface at City Hall. All right. So that's what we know for now. Erica, do you want to close out this topic? We've got one more kicker here when we're done talking about this issue. But I know people can be looking for your updates on Blue Sky. Yeah. Just find me on Blue Sky, Erica C. Barnett.

[00:27:20] And I'm also doing updates on Publicola. But we'll be updating once we know more. So for the latest news, go to Blue Sky. Hey, Seattle nice listeners. Seattle politics got you low. Well, get high with Uncle Ikes. Pissed at the mayor? Relax with a dollar joint.

[00:27:51] Pop a tire in a pothole? Eat a $2 gummy and chill. Whether you need something to pump you up for Saturday's protest or a mellow strain for your next sit-in, Ikes is your best friend. Now is the time to roll up, Seattle. Download the Ikes app today. Or head on over to Ikes.com. That's Ikes.com.

[00:28:20] Yeah. We might even do another second emergency podcast. On the same day. Can we do two in one day? I can't because I'm going to see the Odyssey later today. Off to the minute podcasting. So that's my thing. So Councilmember Eddie Lynn, Erica, did something.

[00:28:43] And this is one of those streamlining type stories where I read it, but I couldn't really, I don't think, do it justice, I guess is the way I'm saying it. Oh my God, this is so controversial and exciting, David. Yeah, no, I'm not saying it's not controversial and exciting. It's just a little, well, controversial and exciting because it was a super tight vote with Bob Kettle being the swing. So that part is super exciting.

[00:29:10] The legislation itself, interesting. What happened? Well, the legislation, which is itself super controversial, basically eliminated one path that people have right now to challenge land use decisions, which is called an appeal at the city's hearing examiner. People often appeal things like zoning proposals. The comprehensive plan is under appeal that started at the hearing examiner.

[00:29:39] And it's one of three paths that people have to challenge generally greater density. And opponents of this legislation, which, again, eliminates that avenue, said that, you know, I mean, said everything from it violates their basic civil rights to it's going to kill orcas because housing people in apartments in neighborhoods is bad.

[00:30:06] And, you know, the problem with these appeals, I mean, there's a couple of problems from the perspective of housing advocates, of which I obviously am one, you know, is that, first of all, they allow, you know, even more endless delay. I mean, the purpose of appeals generally is to delay development. They don't tend to get upheld at the city.

[00:30:28] They also are pre-legislative, which means that, you know, despite all the claims that people were being denied their democratic rights, it actually is anti-democratic to allow these appeals in one sense because they stop the legislative process before it can even get underway. So no discussion of legislation, no amendments of legislation, no public hearings of legislation. They just stop the legislation in its tracks.

[00:30:54] So, you know, it's hard, you know, do we want more housing? Do we not want more housing? We saw a lot of renters and younger people lining up and proposing and saying they wanted more housing. We saw a lot of older homeowners standing up and saying that they oppose more housing. Of course, they don't put it that way. And the vote, as you said, I see eyes blazing over. As you said, the vote was very, very close.

[00:31:20] Bob Kettle cast the deciding vote, which was, you know, surprising to some people. And the no votes were Debra Juarez, Rob Saka, Merza Rivera and Joy Collingsworth. Wow. Keep that pause in. Yeah. Yeah. Look, I'm generally in favor of streamlining processes.

[00:31:45] There's way too many kind of process roadblocks to getting shit done at the city of Seattle. I think a lot of that, I think we generally, we have an overly processy and regulatory culture in Seattle that has become counterproductive in a lot of ways to actually achieving our desired end. So, you know, I'm fine.

[00:32:08] Eddie pulled this like, I should say one of my clients, the stadium authorities, you know, the public facilities district is involved in exactly one of these appeals right now where we are. But that's where we are making a kind of a, anyway, it's not worth getting into. It's over the whole fight over housing in the stadium district where we're trying to actually use the appeal to push them to actually produce some housing.

[00:32:35] But there are other routes to contest these sorts of land use decisions. You can go to, you know, the growth management board. You can go to court on these things. So it's not like people who have objections to land use decisions don't have avenues they can pursue. They just don't have this one anymore. And let me ask about one detail in your story, Erica, that's also on Blue Sky.

[00:32:58] Bob Kettle says it's not right to declare our neighbors are weaponizing the appeals process because of the war in Iran and gun violence epidemic. Reported in the Seattle Times as Kettle saying he points to his service in the U.S. Navy during the Kosovo War, as well as the recent shooting at the Bight of Seattle in the Iran War, urging people to change the way they describe their political opponents. What did he say? And those are two different characterizations of that. Yeah, well, it was part of a very long comment.

[00:33:25] They focused on one element, which was, you know, he talked at length about his service. And and then I focused on the other element, which is that, you know, he said weaponization is, you know, basically an offensive term. Man, I don't know. Like he was focusing on he was focusing on one side, which is the, you know, the renters who were saying that homeowners are weaponizing endless appeals processes to stop housing.

[00:33:51] I don't know what metaphor he would have preferred. But, man, there's a lot of militaristic and violent metaphors that we use in regular language that, you know, as I said on Blue Sky, I assume that henceforth he will not be saying anything about, you know, going going to battle against things, about trigger warnings, about. Yeah. So anyway, I thought it was interesting that.

[00:34:12] And you're saying he didn't he didn't say, you know, stop saying that the pro housing folks want to murder Orca Wales or. No, no, no, no, no, that's fine. And also like demonizing Eddie Land and saying, you know, he's a hypocrite and a liar and all that stuff. That's fine. I mean, I'm sure Bob Kettle doesn't actually play fine, to be clear, but he didn't. If he had him on, he would say he would say he would say those are those are bad, too. But he didn't. He didn't at the time. Correct.

[00:34:38] So so so should we have more tone policing on both sides or do you think that it's fine to know? Shut up with the fucking. Do you think that? Stop it. No tone policing. Like, you know, I don't know where, you know, Linwood. Yeah, I mean, it's just it's I mean, yes, we probably should have more tone policing when it comes to.

[00:35:06] Oh, I don't know. The police chief telling a reporter that he has no right to ask a question and then having to be separated from him physically. But yeah, I mean, like what we're going to say, like, oh, you know, let's shoot for Thursday for that meeting. Oh, wait. Yeah. All right. Yeah. It just gets ridiculous. Yeah. Obviously, you know, don't be a dick. It's a better rule. Like, just don't be offensive. Don't be a dick. Right. Like, but whatever.

[00:35:36] I mean, there's no silver bullet. I'm anti-trigger warnings. I am. Let's just take a shot in the dark at it. Yeah. It's a bit of a Gen X, Gen X podcast. But what's weird is Bob Kettle playing the role of millennial in this conversation. I find it a little surprising. I think we're taking Bob's offhand comment out of, you know, but anyway. I'm sure we're arguing. He said it point blank. Oh, no. Like, we agreed that he would probably be consistent in his. No, no, no.

[00:36:05] I'm a Bob fan. Yeah. He's a straight shooter, you know? Yeah. That's right. All right. I'm done. Yeah. He came at it with guns blazing. Oh, dude. That one totally bombed. Sorry. All right. That's it for another edition of Seattle Nice. He's Sandeep Kaushik. She's Erica C. Barnett. I'm David Hyde. Thanks, everybody, so much for listening.