Blast Balls and Colonoscopies: Bob Kettle on Public Safety and the Council’s 2025 Priorities

[00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the latest edition of Seattle Nice. I'm David Hyde here as always with Erica C. Barnett of Publicola. Hi, Erica.

[00:00:18] Hello.

[00:00:19] And political consultant Sandeep Kaushik. Sandeep, how are you doing?

[00:00:23] I'm good, David. Thank you.

[00:00:24] We also have with us today a very special guest, a distinguished former naval officer who now serves his country as an elected official here in the city of Seattle, City Councilmember Bob Kettle,

[00:00:37] who represents the 7th Council District that includes downtown, Interbay, Magnolia, other neighborhoods. Bob Kettle, welcome to the podcast.

[00:00:47] Well, thank you, David. I really appreciate the opportunity and thanks Sandeep and Erica for having me on.

[00:00:52] Yeah.

[00:00:53] Yeah, we're excited.

[00:00:54] Yeah.

[00:00:57] Somebody besides us.

[00:01:02] We didn't dress up, but we made ourselves presentable.

[00:01:06] Yeah, I will just say for listeners, Bob is looking very distinguished in a jacket and tie, and I think we all have our pajamas on, basically.

[00:01:15] I am in my basement.

[00:01:16] Close to it.

[00:01:17] Close to it.

[00:01:17] Close to it.

[00:01:18] Close to it, yeah.

[00:01:18] So, Bob, thank you so much for coming on. It's great to have you.

[00:01:22] Man, there's a lot of things we could talk about, but I wanted to start with public safety.

[00:01:25] And I know you and I have talked about this a number of times in recent months and about all of the work that the Public Safety Committee that you chair has been doing over the last year.

[00:01:39] And so, how much progress has the city and the council made on public safety issues?

[00:01:47] And can you highlight what you think, you know, what you think has changed, you know, for the better on the public safety front over the last year as you've been chairing the committee?

[00:01:57] Yeah, thanks, Sandeep.

[00:01:59] You know, I think we've had a reset and we've had a change of approach.

[00:02:03] As you know, we have a mission and vision and important, we have our strategic framework plan.

[00:02:08] And that's really been guiding what we've been doing from the council.

[00:02:11] You know, we have our own plan.

[00:02:12] We're engaging as we see the, you know, the public safety challenges that we face.

[00:02:17] And but then cooperating, you know, talking to, working with the executive, the mayor's office, but also the departments, primarily SPD and fire, but also care.

[00:02:27] And in addition to the city attorney's office.

[00:02:29] And I think that's really been helpful because it's allowed us to get 11 public safety bills, eight out of our committee, importantly.

[00:02:38] And two on the Governance Accountability Committee that I vice chair.

[00:02:42] And then, of course, there's also the labor, the SPOG interim agreement.

[00:02:45] You know, so there's 11 bills there.

[00:02:47] And there's some other additional ones, too, like, you know, BLS for the fire department and so forth.

[00:02:52] But, you know, in terms of major ones, we have 11 bills accomplished in 2024.

[00:02:56] And to your question, you know, this is not going to solve things overnight.

[00:03:00] But what it does is it sets in motion for success in 25 and beyond.

[00:03:06] So, you know, one of the things that you said early on and I think I've said pretty consistently is that the city, you know, needs to make it more appealing to be a police officer in particular.

[00:03:16] And that it needs to be easier, essentially, to become a cop.

[00:03:20] And, you know, I'm wondering, there's been a bunch of prominent firings of officers, including the former police chief, Adrian Diaz, in recent months.

[00:03:30] And I'm wondering if you still stand by that, that, you know, we need to adopt an easier hiring test and do more things to get just more bodies in the door.

[00:03:39] Or has the city made enough progress that, you know, there should be more safeguards around who we allow to become police officers?

[00:03:48] You know, my position, as you note, has always been the same.

[00:03:52] But what you're noting is that there's some in government that have been that way.

[00:03:55] I myself have never advocated for getting rid of the NTN, for example, the National Testing Network test.

[00:04:03] We have to maintain the standards.

[00:04:05] And so that's why I support, you know, Chief Orr's decision yesterday in terms of Officer Dave.

[00:04:10] It's also why we have to maintain the standards of terms of the recruitment process and the processing, the testing that is accomplished.

[00:04:18] Because on the back end, we need officers who can do the job, do the constitutional policing as it needs to be done here in Seattle.

[00:04:25] And I'm very hopeful because on a regular basis, I meet with the Before the Badge, through the Before the Badge program, I meet with candidates who are just about to go into the academy.

[00:04:35] And it's such a positive experience.

[00:04:37] You get a wide mix, usually about 15 people, you know, wide mix of gender, backgrounds, ethnicities, desires.

[00:04:45] They all want to do public service.

[00:04:46] And it bodes well for us in the future.

[00:04:49] But we have to have the structure in terms of the recruitment that you're getting to, Erica, to ensure that we have top candidates and then do it quickly and efficiently, but not lower the standards.

[00:05:00] And then prep them for the academy.

[00:05:02] And the academy needs to hold its standards, too, whether it's the physical side of things or the academic and the rest.

[00:05:10] I want to follow up on the question of progress, because, as you know, some folks who live in neighborhoods around the city, Belltown in your district, Little Saigon, other neighborhoods, don't feel like the city's made enough progress on public safety.

[00:05:24] You and others on the current council blamed the last council, essentially, for some of the public safety issues that we're currently facing.

[00:05:32] So when should voters start blaming this council and this mayor on the question of public safety?

[00:05:38] Well, we're in the transition, and the transition is already happening.

[00:05:41] And yes, I have been critical of the old council.

[00:05:45] We're in the new year.

[00:05:46] Year one's done.

[00:05:47] So I need to be moving forward and then looking at what we've done.

[00:05:51] I've noted the 11 bills that we passed.

[00:05:53] But I'll also say, in terms of, like, the Third Avenue project, what's happening downtown, great improvement.

[00:05:59] And what's been happening in Belltown, because we've been putting a lot of pressure there, too.

[00:06:03] You know, the Mamas building has come down at Third and Bell.

[00:06:07] I just got an email from Captain Brown regarding the actions that they're taking in Belltown to create a more positive environment.

[00:06:14] Because it's not just the, you know, those that are the most vulnerable that are hurting.

[00:06:19] That neighborhood is hurting.

[00:06:21] The businesses are hurting.

[00:06:22] The neighbors are hurting.

[00:06:23] And so they sense and know that we are making that transition, David.

[00:06:26] And so they know that the transition is happening.

[00:06:29] We're not there yet.

[00:06:30] We're not making any false promises.

[00:06:32] You know, we're not making some grand, you know, declarations.

[00:06:37] And the challenge now as we're making this progress is that we have the shifting piece that often comes up.

[00:06:42] And it's true.

[00:06:43] You know, so the, you know, usually it's more smaller.

[00:06:46] Now we have a bit more macro kind of, you know, approach where, you know, we're heavy emphasis downtown.

[00:06:51] So next thing you know, as you know, 12 Jackson and King.

[00:06:54] So we have to continue.

[00:06:56] And we also have issues in U District and up in North Seattle as well.

[00:07:00] So for District 7, if you go downtown and talk to the new Downtown Community Council or if you go to the Belltown Community Council, Belltown United,

[00:07:07] they will say that we're making positive change and working in the right direction as it relates to public safety.

[00:07:15] You mentioned the shifting problem.

[00:07:17] And I think what you're referring to is the fact that people go back and forth, you know, from one location where, you know, the police do an emphasis.

[00:07:25] They sweep people out of there who are, you know, selling drugs, selling stolen goods, and they move somewhere else.

[00:07:30] And, you know, the city passed sort of no-go zones.

[00:07:35] I'm going to call them because the acronyms are confusing for drug users.

[00:07:40] They're called soda zones.

[00:07:41] And, you know, it does seem as though, you know, at some point we're going to have to have, you know, a discussion about whether those are working.

[00:07:49] And I anticipate the council will end up talking about expanding them.

[00:07:54] What is the evidence that, you know, we're doing anything more than just shifting folks around?

[00:07:59] You know, is the problem really being solved?

[00:08:01] And how can it be addressed, you know, if it's not being solved now?

[00:08:05] I've got two points on that.

[00:08:07] One is the soda zone and SOAP2 were based on metrics on data sets in terms of the hotspots and the like.

[00:08:13] And then when those soda zones were built, too, we made your effort.

[00:08:17] And this was like working with all elements of government, primarily with the city attorney's office, is using SPD data, is to also avoid, you know, those outlets where, you know, service providers, you know.

[00:08:33] And that was really important in terms of developing those soda zones.

[00:08:36] And then it's also augmented, like with the CCTV program, which kind of goes right over both zones and heads north in terms of downtown Belltown.

[00:08:44] And that is separate from, you know, the Aurora piece of that.

[00:08:47] That's very important right there.

[00:08:49] The other thing, too, that I wanted to note, one of the bills that we passed was the SCORE ILA, which was really, I think, keep, in addition to all the other kind of pressing that we've been doing in terms of getting a King County agreement.

[00:09:00] So what's happening is.

[00:09:01] And I'm so sorry to interrupt you.

[00:09:03] I just want it for our listeners.

[00:09:05] That's the interlocal agreement to open up beds in the SCORE jail, which is down in Kent.

[00:09:11] Yeah, the South King County Correctional Facility, which is a government facility of those jurisdictions in South King County.

[00:09:18] And so what's happening now with the new King County agreement is the drug dealers are being placed in jail.

[00:09:26] And so what's happening is that world is getting shrunk.

[00:09:31] You know, we're shrinking that permissive environment going back to the strategic framework plan.

[00:09:35] So we're looking to reduce the overall public safety challenge, not just having the shifting piece.

[00:09:42] So in order to deal with the shifting pieces, you've got to shrink it.

[00:09:45] And shrinking it means, you know, getting officers on the streets.

[00:09:49] You know, 2024 is the first time in years that we've had a net plus in terms of staffing.

[00:09:53] You know, we're getting them to tools in terms of technology pieces.

[00:09:59] So huge is the able to book.

[00:10:01] You cannot underestimate the ability to book in terms of, you know, the police officers' ability to do their jobs.

[00:10:07] And they're booking those that are committing the felonies.

[00:10:10] They're booking the drug dealers, not those that are suffering from addiction, unless there's some additional pieces to it.

[00:10:17] Because we do believe in the diversion piece that I work closely with LEAD, you know, the PDA on that.

[00:10:23] And so that is key to your question is shrinking it.

[00:10:26] So then it doesn't just shift, shift from one place to another.

[00:10:29] And just on the jail bookings piece, because I think this has been a really, really significant and I think underappreciated development that's happened in the last few months.

[00:10:39] But Councilmember Kettle, do you agree with the contention I made on the podcast that the decision that you all made to do the SCORE contract, right, to do this contract with the South King County jail facility, was instrumental in getting the breakthrough with King County about allowing the King County jail to, again, start accepting those who have committed kind of lower level offenses, drug dealing.

[00:11:09] Or whatever.

[00:11:10] Whereas before they weren't being booked into the jail.

[00:11:12] Now King County has relented, first in downtown, but now citywide, allowing those bookings to take place at the King County jail.

[00:11:20] So you think the decision the council made on SCORE played into that decision by King County?

[00:11:26] Indirectly, yes.

[00:11:27] Yes.

[00:11:27] You know, what it was is it's part of the overall effort.

[00:11:30] And part of this is engagement because like, you know, transit security, which is very important right now with King County Metro and King County sheriffs.

[00:11:36] I've talked to sheriffs on the street on a regular basis like I do with the SPD officers.

[00:11:40] And, you know, they're facing the same challenges and saying, hey, you know, it's really important to have them as part of the response.

[00:11:47] And they've stepped up.

[00:11:49] And I think the county recognized what was happening on our streets.

[00:11:52] And they also recognized what was happening with the council and with the city government overall.

[00:11:56] And, you know, so to your point, the SCORE in our local agreement, the ILA, was expression of that determination.

[00:12:05] And so, yes, I think these combination of things helped in terms of the King County agreement.

[00:12:10] And I think it's very positive because I think the agreement completed as it was from a city's perspective is better than if it was completed a year ago in January 24.

[00:12:21] The work that we did in 24 helped create conditions for a more positive agreement because we're going to pay either way.

[00:12:29] It's more of the operational parameters of the agreement that were important.

[00:12:31] And so I'm happy with the agreement.

[00:12:34] And I'm also very happy with the coordination.

[00:12:37] By the way, this isn't, you know, professionally done.

[00:12:40] Like you talk about the SCORE ILA bill, but we had a big meeting here in City Hall.

[00:12:45] We had King County Sheriff, King County Prosecutor.

[00:12:48] There was a whole members of the King County Council.

[00:12:53] Plus, you know, on our side, you know, Chief Rohrer, myself, Council Member Moore.

[00:12:59] You know, a bunch of people on both sides.

[00:13:02] And we were engaging on the issues that were facing us in terms of like what we're talking about here and how we need to have these different pieces in play in terms of the ability to book for those that need to be in jail.

[00:13:14] So Seattle could see a lot more protests over the next four years or at least some protests over the next four years.

[00:13:20] President Trump or President-elect Trump, I should say, will be inaugurated January 20th.

[00:13:24] I think there's a protest planned here a couple of days before that.

[00:13:27] A woman's march that's been renamed the People's March.

[00:13:31] So the question is, how should the city and SBD be dealing with protests in what could be a more fraught environment than we've previously experienced?

[00:13:41] You've proposed legislation on the use of less lethal forms of crowd control, including something called blast balls that can cause serious injuries.

[00:13:50] So the question is, should the mayor need to first approve the use of those sorts of devices before they can be used, as some of your colleagues on the city council have proposed?

[00:14:01] Thank you, David.

[00:14:02] Can I just say, before I answer that question in terms of the legislation, is that eight years ago, I participated in that march.

[00:14:13] And I support the right for those to do it.

[00:14:16] And I am mindful of what we're entering into.

[00:14:20] But for me, it's about doing our job.

[00:14:23] I'm not going to get caught up in all these different pieces because that's partly what is the intended,

[00:14:29] you know, what they're trying to do in terms of the press points and so forth, you know, pressing.

[00:14:34] They're looking for the reaction.

[00:14:35] My reaction is, we'll just do our jobs.

[00:14:37] And that's what we're going to do as we move forward over the next four years.

[00:14:41] And one of my jobs is to create a safe base in the city.

[00:14:45] And part of that goes to the crowd management transitioning to your question.

[00:14:49] And we have this bill.

[00:14:52] It has been done in cooperation with, you know, the executive.

[00:14:56] We also have check-ins with the federal monitor because this is also part of the consent decree process.

[00:15:01] And so we're looking at the legislation.

[00:15:03] And I won't go into details because we're still kind of in the middle of the process.

[00:15:07] But we're looking at amendments.

[00:15:10] Like I have my chair amendment, which looks at one thing in terms of who can approve, you know, the right level.

[00:15:16] Because when I read the, you know, the draft legislation, obviously just the unseen commander was not enough.

[00:15:21] It needed to be at a higher level.

[00:15:23] And I'm working with my colleagues and also central staff on this.

[00:15:28] Separately, and then there's pieces to the how that is done.

[00:15:32] You know, we can't be over-prescriptive, but, you know, to look that the employment of less lethal weapons is done in a way that also avoids the accidental or the, you know, the collateral kind of injuries that may happen.

[00:15:45] And then also in the chair's amendment, we're looking at mutual aid to ensure that the Seattle way, you know, constitutional policing is the way that is done in terms of less lethal weapons and crowd management more generally.

[00:15:58] And then we also have, you know, a piece in terms of accountability partners.

[00:16:03] You know, bringing in OIG is very important.

[00:16:06] We don't just wait for the end of the year report.

[00:16:08] Bringing them in early.

[00:16:09] And there's also, you know, some space.

[00:16:12] Some people ask, like, why aren't we more prescriptive in terms of getting into the policies of SPD with this legislation?

[00:16:18] I would argue we need to set up our accountability partners for success.

[00:16:23] And one of that is, you know, I'll create some space for CPC, the Community Police Commission, to engage on these policy pieces.

[00:16:30] And they're doing that.

[00:16:31] You know, Commissioner Chair Joel Merkel and the CPC team is doing that.

[00:16:37] And then there's obviously, as I just mentioned, the OIG.

[00:16:40] And then one last piece, and the details may change a little bit, but also if there's looking to bring any new less lethal weapons into the mix, that they have to come and notify the council and specifically the committee.

[00:16:57] Just real quick clarification or just to put a finer point on some of that discussion in case our listeners are not, you know, down in the nitty gritty of the details.

[00:17:07] Are you saying that the mayor would need to, under the chair's amendment that you're proposing, that the mayor would need to approve the use of blast balls and that mutual aid agencies, meaning other police departments that come in to help SPD at protests, would need to abide by Seattle policies on, you know, their own use of less lethal weapons?

[00:17:26] There's discussion regarding the level.

[00:17:29] And the discussion generally centers on mayor and the chief of police.

[00:17:36] And then there's the assistant chiefs are usually the on-scene commanders.

[00:17:39] So there's this combination of terms of how do we do that.

[00:17:45] So, and this has not been settled.

[00:17:48] Obviously, another big thing of this legislation does as well as a tie-in is, you know, tear gas.

[00:17:53] And we have to align the Seattle Municipal Code to the, you know, the Code of Washington, the RCW.

[00:18:01] And regarding blast balls, I mean, regarding tear gas.

[00:18:06] And that is at the mayor level.

[00:18:08] But for other less lethal weapons, we're not there.

[00:18:12] There's a discussion going on like, you know, hey, is the chief of police a more appropriate place for that to happen?

[00:18:18] Or in some combination with, you know, an assistant chief on-scene commander level.

[00:18:24] So that's some of the details, but it hasn't been decided yet.

[00:18:30] And regarding mutual aid, this is like ensuring that when officers come to and support that they are, you know,

[00:18:39] the command and control piece is with SPD and that they are being used in a way that is consistent with SPD policies

[00:18:48] to ensure that we're not bringing in some, you know, other way of doing business.

[00:18:53] The way of doing business is the Seattle Police Department way of doing business.

[00:18:57] Which can I add to, going to back to all those 11 bills,

[00:19:01] a lot of the arguments against the bills were as if we weren't the police department that we are

[00:19:06] in terms of all the reforms that we've done, the fact that we have three accountability partners.

[00:19:10] A lot of jurisdictions around the country, particularly in Red State America, Red County America,

[00:19:15] they don't have accountability partners.

[00:19:16] They don't have all the reform pieces.

[00:19:18] They don't have a before-the-badge program and the like.

[00:19:21] And so that is, I just wanted to highlight that because that's important.

[00:19:25] And it's important for us on the council to have, you know, the Seattle way, if you will,

[00:19:31] that constitutional policing.

[00:19:33] Let's start looking forward.

[00:19:34] We've been talking a lot about 2024.

[00:19:36] But obviously, it's January 7th that we're taping this.

[00:19:40] We're in a new year.

[00:19:42] Council Member, what do you see on your agenda or the city's agenda,

[00:19:47] public safety and other issues going forward into 2025?

[00:19:51] What needs to happen next?

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[00:20:43] My strategic priorities are, first, public safety, creating a safe base.

[00:20:48] Second is, I say the port, but the maritime industrial economy ensuring that we have a viable port 100 years from now.

[00:20:56] Because first we had, you know, rush to Alaska.

[00:20:59] We had timber.

[00:21:00] You know, then we had airplanes.

[00:21:01] Now we have tech.

[00:21:02] We don't know what's going to be, you know, 100 years from now.

[00:21:04] But there won't be any new deep water ports.

[00:21:07] And, you know, and we do this not just for the city, but also for the county and the region and really for the northwest part of the United States.

[00:21:15] So that's kind of my second priority.

[00:21:17] And then all the constituent pieces, whether it's parks, transportation, and the like.

[00:21:21] And so that drives, you know, that was 24 and that's still for 25.

[00:21:24] And that's how I look at it.

[00:21:26] But specifically on public safety is, I think we need to look at, you know, ordinances, starting with less lethal weapons.

[00:21:36] But there's others as well.

[00:21:37] I think we have to look at the criminal justice system to ensure that it's healthy and functioning.

[00:21:42] The new piece that kind of came out of budget is, you know, community safety.

[00:21:46] One thing I notice, and you can look at the headlines recently in terms of embezzlement and some of the other things going on in this space, that we have great work being done with community safety.

[00:21:58] But there's really no oversight.

[00:22:00] You know, some groups report to Department of Neighborhoods, you know, Human Services Department.

[00:22:03] We just added more money.

[00:22:05] You know, Council Member Hollingsworth had an amendment, Council Budget Action, that added more money from a certain angle.

[00:22:12] Council Member Wu did the same.

[00:22:14] And so I want to look at this to, for one, in terms of proper oversight, financial management and the like, ensuring that we're getting return on the investment that we're doing.

[00:22:24] But also to ensure that this body of work is also in sync with the general alternative response.

[00:22:31] My focus has been primary care department, you know, fire with Health 199, the CSOs and police department, that alternative response kind of world looking at that.

[00:22:40] But this is like the next level and next layer.

[00:22:43] And we have to ensure that it is in sync with what our goals are and what we're trying to do in terms of public safety.

[00:22:49] And so that's going to be another area.

[00:22:52] And I'm sure Erica saw this yesterday.

[00:22:55] You know, you talk about, you know, me checking in with Seattle Nice.

[00:22:59] I'm sure you guys are always listening in to the Seattle Channel, the award-winning Seattle Channel.

[00:23:05] And if you saw the council briefing, which really turned into a council meeting and really a public safety committee meeting, you know, transit security.

[00:23:11] So there's, you know, that's going to be huge in 25 as well.

[00:23:15] And so these are the things that we'll be looking at in 2025.

[00:23:18] So we're talking about protests of the new incoming Trump administration.

[00:23:23] And so I wanted to ask, you know, Seattle is a sanctuary city for immigrants, refugees, as well as, you know, people seeking reproductive care, gender affirming care, etc.

[00:23:33] We could very soon be facing the loss of federal dollars because of our status as a sanctuary city.

[00:23:39] And that really could impact the city of Seattle.

[00:23:41] I haven't heard a lot of talk about that at the city, either from the council or the mayor.

[00:23:44] You know, one thing that's in your committee is emergency response.

[00:23:49] And, you know, the city could face a loss of federal dollars for natural disasters, things like that.

[00:23:55] And so I wanted to ask, you know, are you concerned and what is your level of concern about potential loss of funding?

[00:24:02] And what preparations have you or others on the council been taking to address that?

[00:24:07] You know, I've not been speaking to this publicly.

[00:24:12] But partly to the point I made earlier, it just feeds into what they're looking in terms of when I say they, you know, the, you know, the.

[00:24:22] That side of the political spectrum that's trying to draw out reactions.

[00:24:26] And so I'm not going to do that.

[00:24:28] And as I said, my job is to do my job.

[00:24:32] And when it comes to public safety is to do it and to highlight those pieces.

[00:24:36] And if need be, remind county and state, in this case, federal, to do their jobs.

[00:24:42] You know, I often talk about the county and the state needing to do their jobs related to public health or mental health and the like.

[00:24:47] But the federal needs to do it as well.

[00:24:49] You know, in terms of refugees, you know, the federal government has been failing.

[00:24:52] And, you know, it's like, hey, what are you doing to do that right?

[00:24:56] And according to law.

[00:24:58] And, you know, and this goes to the other areas as well.

[00:25:02] And, you know, so if they're looking to like emergency preparedness is a key part of public safety.

[00:25:09] And so if they're looking to, you know, not support our ability to withstand the earthquake and tsunami to any other type of natural disaster,

[00:25:17] then we need to call that out and we will do that if it was to happen.

[00:25:22] And then we would have to work with our county and state partners in terms of and then internally in terms of what flexing do we do in terms of budget and dollars and the like.

[00:25:33] But I will not hesitate to say, hey, we're doing our job.

[00:25:37] You need to do your job.

[00:25:38] And and that is key.

[00:25:40] And, you know, part of doing our job is to increase the posture.

[00:25:44] Like. We only have, you know, last year was the year that we've actually gained a net over the last number of years,

[00:25:51] but we're still down so far from our staffing in terms of police officers that they are fully employed doing their job here on the streets of Seattle.

[00:26:00] And that is going to be their priority.

[00:26:02] And it has to be their priority because that is part of our mission of creating a safe base in our city.

[00:26:06] So it's not doing these additional duties, as we say in the military ad dues.

[00:26:11] You know, this is about doing our primary mission and then calling out when needed if the federal government is not doing its job.

[00:26:19] Speaking about budgetary concerns, I wanted to follow up on Kathy Moore's capital gains tax proposal from this year that would have raised between 16 and 51 million dollars.

[00:26:31] I know you're against it, but Seattle has one of the most regressive tax systems in the United States, as does Washington state.

[00:26:37] And the city and the state really don't have a lot of tools to try and address that.

[00:26:43] Should we be as a city?

[00:26:45] Should our city leaders be supporting a capital gains tax proposal in the coming session of some sort?

[00:26:51] Kind of what are your thoughts about that?

[00:26:53] And not just why did you oppose this specific one, but just what about the regressivity of our tax code and the limited number of tools we have to address it,

[00:27:03] whether or not that's something you might want to try to address in 2025?

[00:27:07] I did.

[00:27:08] David, thank you for that.

[00:27:09] I did vote no.

[00:27:11] But it's not to say that I'm against it fully.

[00:27:15] What I believe is that we have to do job one first, and that is to look at the traditional revenue sources and say,

[00:27:25] hey, what is the issues there?

[00:27:27] What do we need to build them back up in terms of downtown recovery, for example?

[00:27:32] How can we increase that piece?

[00:27:34] And we need to keep the focus on that.

[00:27:37] And because if we lose the focus on that, we start losing other things as well.

[00:27:41] And so my concern is that pulling away the focus in terms of those traditional revenue from the business side,

[00:27:47] in terms of what's happening downtown and throughout our city, in terms of raising those traditional areas.

[00:27:52] But then there's also the pieces in terms of the real estate side, too, in terms of we just did design review, and I voted for that.

[00:27:59] All those kinds of things like, hey, how can we support those traditional revenue sources and build them up?

[00:28:04] Secondly, and I don't think we did a particularly good job in terms of should we be spending all that we're spending?

[00:28:13] Is this smart spending?

[00:28:14] We've had some huge increases, and I'm not saying 100% that we should be cutting everything.

[00:28:20] But do we do a strong enough look?

[00:28:22] And that's one reason why we did the Seattle Housing Investment Plan partly is to bring things together for the transparency piece,

[00:28:31] kind of like how the Seattle Transportation Plan is.

[00:28:33] But going through the rigor of that process, we may be able to identify places where we can save money or reallocate money to better serving areas.

[00:28:41] And so that is another piece that needs to be done.

[00:28:44] And I don't think it's been done as well as can or should be done.

[00:28:49] And so then if my concern to your question is, if we just go that route in terms of the capital gains,

[00:28:58] and our focus is there, we tend to forget steps one and two.

[00:29:02] And that is my concern.

[00:29:04] And I think we need to do a better job on that.

[00:29:07] And so if we do a very thorough job on those two points, then yes, it's possible that I would vote yes.

[00:29:15] So this is not an absolute against because, as you noted in the state, the regressive tax nature.

[00:29:24] But it's about doing first things first, basically, for me.

[00:29:28] Speaking of the award-winning Seattle Channel, I was watching the comprehensive plan meeting this week.

[00:29:33] It got a little feisty yesterday, the very first one of the year.

[00:29:38] And, you know, I mean, you represent a district that has a lot of density.

[00:29:42] It also has, you know, parts of Magnolia, Queen Anne, that are, you know,

[00:29:47] that have people protesting against some of the changes that would allow more housing and density in those areas.

[00:29:53] You're a Queen Anne Community Council guy.

[00:29:55] Are you going to support lowering density in your district?

[00:29:59] And if not, how do you respond to the folks who show up and say things, you know,

[00:30:05] like allowing apartments will destroy tree canopy and harm neighborhood character?

[00:30:11] You know, since you watched the award-winning Seattle Channel, you saw my, you know, my points that I made.

[00:30:19] And it was in my newsletter, too.

[00:30:21] And, you know, and I said, hey, to your point, District 7 is kind of unique.

[00:30:27] We have three regional centers.

[00:30:28] So a big chunk of the district is not part of this round in terms of the comprehensive plan.

[00:30:34] And then because of Magnolia, we only have the east slope from 28th West basically down.

[00:30:40] There's one area at basically at the top of Thorndike towards the southern part of the southeast part of Magnolia where there's a little bit.

[00:30:47] And then in Inner Bay, there's a neighborhood center being there.

[00:30:51] But it is what it is.

[00:30:52] It's already its area.

[00:30:53] So it's basically acknowledging what's already there.

[00:30:57] And so, yes, the QFC on Dravis can become like the 21 Boston Safeway project on Upper Queen Anne.

[00:31:03] But it's pretty self-contained and straight up.

[00:31:06] So to your point, yeah, in terms of this round, Queen Anne is the big part in terms of the comprehensive plan.

[00:31:12] And I've been straightforward in terms of, yes, we need the densification.

[00:31:18] We need more housing.

[00:31:19] And importantly, we need more types of housing.

[00:31:23] Because as I said yesterday, we can't just have skinny townhomes everywhere.

[00:31:27] We have to have the mix.

[00:31:28] We have to have the triplexes.

[00:31:30] You know, my last apartment was an apartment here on the west side of Queen Anne that was a triplex.

[00:31:36] It was horizontal, which allowed people, if you had a disability, if you're young kids or, you know, you're elderly or whatever, you could come in off the alley into that apartment.

[00:31:47] And oh, by the way, it was multiple bedrooms.

[00:31:48] It could be great for a family, you know.

[00:31:51] And we don't seem to be building those anymore.

[00:31:54] So we have to have these kind of varied types of housing.

[00:31:57] So looking for approaches to bring up these different types of housing.

[00:32:03] And, you know, neighborhood centers, I mentioned neighborhoods.

[00:32:06] I spoke to OPCD a few times before yesterday's meeting.

[00:32:10] And I said, we should really have more.

[00:32:11] And I said, you know, to create more, you can probably do this by having smaller ones, as I said yesterday, skinny rectangles.

[00:32:19] And they didn't go that route.

[00:32:20] You know, initially they cut it.

[00:32:21] They put some more in.

[00:32:23] It doesn't really.

[00:32:23] They're circles now.

[00:32:24] Yeah, they're kind of, you know, polyglots.

[00:32:26] And they're really not.

[00:32:29] I want rhombuses.

[00:32:31] Rhombuses, yeah.

[00:32:32] So they're not.

[00:32:33] Yeah, so it's not.

[00:32:34] There's only one in the entire District 7.

[00:32:36] And it's the one in Interbay.

[00:32:38] And I think that we could probably look to do something on the transit-oriented development point when there's a commercial piece.

[00:32:47] And then have a, you know, an LR3, you know, a higher level to create a mini neighborhood center.

[00:32:53] And I think that's important because as we move forward over the next 10, 20 years, these areas will organically grow or not.

[00:32:59] And for those that organically grow, they could become a new neighborhood center in the next round.

[00:33:05] And so it's kind of having the long view that I think is important.

[00:33:08] And so that's kind of my general approach.

[00:33:13] But I also know that OPCD doesn't know District 7 and doesn't know Queen Anne as well as I do.

[00:33:20] And as I noted yesterday, it's interesting, and this could almost be a topic for you guys in the future, is like the difference of having a district-based council versus 10 years ago when it was citywide and before that.

[00:33:33] Because it really changes the dynamics, I believe, not just in this area, but across the whole spate of topics that come before the council.

[00:33:43] And so I've said this publicly, and so I will be looking to, you know, what areas, you know, that make sense in terms of maybe some amendments.

[00:33:55] And I do think, by the way, that we can do development and protect trees.

[00:33:59] I invite you to go to McGraw Square, you know, the former Seattle children's home that I participated as a community member.

[00:34:05] And, in fact, I took Alex Peterson, former council member Peterson, down there, and we were going doorbelling, you know, after he endorsed me.

[00:34:13] And he got out of the car.

[00:34:14] I just happened to park by it.

[00:34:16] And he goes, what?

[00:34:17] He looked up.

[00:34:18] He couldn't believe it because he'd see all the new townhomes.

[00:34:20] But then he sees all these mature trees.

[00:34:22] He goes, how did this happen?

[00:34:23] I go, Alex, this is what I was talking about.

[00:34:26] You know, McGraw, this project.

[00:34:27] And we can do intensification, which now has 59 townhomes at that site and two cottages.

[00:34:33] So 61, granted, not affordable.

[00:34:36] They're all over a million dollars.

[00:34:37] But we did the densification and we got trees at that location that weren't cut down.

[00:34:42] And I think that is a way ahead for us.

[00:34:46] And so we need to look to where we can, you know, square the circle, as I like to say, in terms of get the densification, but also maintain the tree canopy pieces, also maintain public amenities, you know, that could be benefit for all.

[00:35:03] You know, moving forward.

[00:35:05] So, yes, I will say, Erica, as you know, because I've seen you at some of these events before, you know, they can be kind of difficult.

[00:35:16] Spicy?

[00:35:16] They can be spicy.

[00:35:18] Spicy.

[00:35:19] But part of it is, you know, knowing and, you know, and saying your position and then saying, okay, how can we work together to work different pieces?

[00:35:29] But we will be densifying in Queen Anne and D7, just like we've been doing.

[00:35:35] You know, as you know, District 7, because we went vertical, came in horizontal after the last census relook at the districts.

[00:35:45] And I suspect that might happen again after the next census is taken.

[00:35:50] I know Saadip has a question, but Saadip, do you want to sing the tree murder song before you go?

[00:35:57] I can't remember the lyrics.

[00:35:59] There's going to be an orca murder song pretty soon, I suspect.

[00:36:03] Erica, that's a great point to bring up because, you know what, it's like, hey, is OPCD and the executive doing their job like with the EIS?

[00:36:09] And it's like, you know, when they were bringing up the orcas, and really what it is, is do we have trees?

[00:36:15] Do we have systems that, you know, from an environmental perspective, keep the contaminants, the pollutants from going into the bay or going into our water spaces?

[00:36:24] And that is an important topic.

[00:36:25] And the orca was a way to kind of capture your attention.

[00:36:28] But this comes up with the port.

[00:36:30] I see this on a regular basis with, you know, 46 and 30, Pier 30 and Pier 46, and some of the actions that are being, you know, some of the questions that are being asked.

[00:36:38] And the port's doing a great work on that area.

[00:36:41] But, you know, these are real questions that should be addressed.

[00:36:43] And it's like, how can we do that better?

[00:36:45] Like, you know, with Smith Coe Park, they're putting an area, a natural area, to be that kind of filter and that, you know, protection.

[00:36:52] You know, on the south side of the interbay pea patch, that whole slope they're trying to bring back because it's basically a slough.

[00:36:59] You know, the water, you know, pieces to it.

[00:37:01] So we need to be smart environmentally to include protecting New Orcas.

[00:37:06] Yeah.

[00:37:07] So just on the confidence, I'm going to ask kind of a pointed question maybe, but one that I've been kind of grappling with for a bit, which is that, you know, I've argued that part of the reason we saw the results we did nationally in the election, Trump winning, winning, you know, pretty decisively, has been increasing public unhappiness.

[00:37:31] But the kind of basic competence of governance in blue cities.

[00:37:36] And when I look at the comp plan, it's coming, like this discussion is coming a year late.

[00:37:41] The EIS, as you mentioned, council member isn't even done.

[00:37:46] Like, so why shouldn't I or other people be kind of looking at that saying, you know, pardon my French here, but like, what the fuck is going on with the city?

[00:37:56] And why don't they have their act together on this stuff?

[00:37:58] Like, why is it taking so long?

[00:37:59] Why is it delayed?

[00:38:00] Well, you know, what's your response then?

[00:38:03] Sorry for me being so, you know, pointed here.

[00:38:08] But I hear that, right?

[00:38:09] I, you know, don't worry, Sandeep, as a regular listener, I know the language on the show can be kind of choice.

[00:38:17] Right, right, right.

[00:38:20] And you all know that I'm a former sailor, but I am also now a council member.

[00:38:24] So I'm not going to join you.

[00:38:25] You never heard that in the Navy.

[00:38:26] Yeah, I'm not going to join you down that path.

[00:38:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:38:30] But you bring up a great question.

[00:38:32] And it came out in a New York Times article.

[00:38:34] I forget who wrote it, you know, talking about, you know, the West Coast City, blue cities and so forth.

[00:38:40] And it also kind of shows up in terms of the direction of the Democratic Party.

[00:38:44] And that's been a discussion that comes up with our local congressional representatives and so forth.

[00:38:49] And, like, what's the lessons learned?

[00:38:51] And to that I say, you know, I come from a red area of a blue state, New York state.

[00:38:57] And basically it's because between Rochester and Buffalo, New York, the Democrats in Albany weren't really paying attention for decades.

[00:39:04] And so we've lost that area.

[00:39:06] And we've lost other areas.

[00:39:07] And to your point about, you know, blue cities really need to stand up and do a good job and focus on the basics and show that we're getting the job done to attract those votes, which can play out.

[00:39:23] Because it's like a batting ram.

[00:39:25] You know, here in liberal Seattle, a lot of people don't really have conservative friends.

[00:39:29] But between my hometown area and the military, I have tons.

[00:39:32] And these West Coast cities are used in terms of information warfare, in terms of the political sense, to get them to maybe vote against their interests, as you saw in 20, you know, a couple of months ago.

[00:39:45] And so it's important for us to, again, do our job, look at the facts, and then, you know, approach it in a more matter-of-fact way.

[00:39:56] And that's what I'm trying to do with on public safety, for example.

[00:39:59] You know, I'm not coming in one way.

[00:40:02] But we're also looking to do the human services part.

[00:40:05] And I made this point.

[00:40:07] If it wasn't for the work that Council Member Moore did, like on SOAP, the stay-out-of-areas-of-prostitution, and the sexual exploitation area more broadly, and she's really pushing it still.

[00:40:19] If we weren't pushing on the public safety side, the human services side would not be plussed up right now.

[00:40:24] We wouldn't have gotten that $2 million ad, you know, from the mayor and the budget, and then what we've done since then.

[00:40:31] And so we need to have that kind of combination approach, that nuts-and-bolts kind of approach, you know, and to show that we can get the job done.

[00:40:40] Because it's important for the residents of the city, but it also has broader implications, both, you know, in the state and across the country.

[00:40:49] We have a listener and a Patreon supporter.

[00:40:52] If you go to patreon.com slash Seattle Nice, you can become one of them.

[00:40:56] Listener Carl and supporter Carl says, I have a meta question about Seattle politics that's kind of a follow-up to this, I think.

[00:41:03] It feels like elected officials don't really have big ideas anymore.

[00:41:07] Bruce Harrell talks about space needle thinking, but I can't think of any projects that meet that sentiment.

[00:41:12] Dashboards, frameworks, task forces, studies, process.

[00:41:16] What's different now compared to when cities did do big things?

[00:41:21] Do we not as a city think big currently?

[00:41:25] What's your response to our listener, Carl?

[00:41:29] A, I appreciate the question.

[00:41:31] The first thing that comes to my mind is the overlook walk.

[00:41:34] That is a big thing, you know, and that shows, and you know what, it's not just the overlook walk because it's also the tunnel, which is also a huge thing.

[00:41:43] And then you look at the waterfront park more generally, and then the efforts to connect it all the way up to, you know, to Smith Cove, as I mentioned, and beyond.

[00:41:53] Those are big pieces to bring back the bay, to bring back the views of the Olympics.

[00:42:00] That is big thinking.

[00:42:02] You know, and so to his question, maybe, you know, like big thinking would be to get a better transportation system, like with the ferry system.

[00:42:10] But that is also city, county, state to, so that's part A of my answer to this question.

[00:42:17] Part B is I hear them, but every day, every day, David, I hear people who are suffering.

[00:42:24] You know, I go to these meetings one-on-one or group meetings, whether I mentioned earlier downtown and Belltown, where people are suffering.

[00:42:30] And they, you know, they're hitting this, where I'm engaging with helping those that are in need to ensure that they get shelter, working with like the unified care team, you know,

[00:42:39] and going out and about and knowing and hearing from community.

[00:42:43] These are day-to-day stuff that we need to take care of and do the right job, back to Sandeep's question.

[00:42:49] And because that is the immediate, you know, piece that we need to do and accomplish here in our city.

[00:42:58] So, changing topics, but there was a, and, you know, we've talked a lot about policy and stuff like that,

[00:43:03] but let's bring it back to kind of the politics and the froth here.

[00:43:07] Like, there was a pretty big kerfuffle recently when your now former colleague Tammy Morales sort of abruptly announced that she was resigning her seat.

[00:43:16] She just left a couple days ago, or yesterday on the 6th, I guess, was her resignation day.

[00:43:22] But what she said on the way out the door was that she was leaving because the culture and the vibe and the conversation at the council had become toxic,

[00:43:34] that she was being really poorly treated by her colleagues, you know, because she's ideologically in a different place than, you know,

[00:43:43] the more moderate council members like yourself that got elected in the 2023 election.

[00:43:48] And so, she really, you know, criticized, I would say, you all pretty directly as she made her exit.

[00:43:59] And so, council member, respond to that criticism.

[00:44:03] You and I have talked about this in private a bit.

[00:44:06] I've talked to a number of your other colleagues about it.

[00:44:08] But talk a little bit about how you respond to that criticism that you essentially drove Tammy out.

[00:44:16] Not you, but you, the council, the rest of the council general.

[00:44:21] Yes.

[00:44:21] And, you know, I respect council member Morales.

[00:44:25] I respect Tammy.

[00:44:27] Yes, we're very different places.

[00:44:30] Obviously, we're not in the same lane politically.

[00:44:34] But we did work together early on with the vacant buildings abatement bill that we did, which was really important for District 2 in addition to up the city.

[00:44:42] You know, not just from public safety, but also in terms of economic development, the blight that comes with these dangerous buildings that have been vacant and then damaged.

[00:44:51] So, that was very positive.

[00:44:55] You know, as you know, I've been to all five precincts and gave my remarks to each.

[00:44:59] I invited Tammy and we went down to the south precinct together.

[00:45:03] You know, so imagine council member Morales and council member Kettle together in front of, you know, a double shift, you know, so that we try to maximize these visits at roll call.

[00:45:15] And, you know, I gave my remarks.

[00:45:16] So, she heard what I said.

[00:45:17] I brought up the consent decree and there's a reason why we have it.

[00:45:20] And I also brought up the accountability partners.

[00:45:22] So, she understands where I'm coming from in terms of, I like to think, balanced approach.

[00:45:27] And then she gave her remarks.

[00:45:28] And so, we were together at the south precinct.

[00:45:31] And then my staff would work with her staff, you know, here and there.

[00:45:36] Now, there's not as much engagement as the others, obviously.

[00:45:40] I did not look to, you know, to push on other areas.

[00:45:46] And I will say the day before she made her announcement, I came out for a council meeting.

[00:45:52] That was a Tuesday.

[00:45:53] I came out of my office and I saw her coming down the hallway.

[00:45:57] I could have just turned my back and walked to the council chambers.

[00:46:01] But I didn't.

[00:46:02] I waited.

[00:46:03] And she came up to me and said hello.

[00:46:07] And then we walked, you know, made that right-hand turn.

[00:46:10] You guys have both been there, you know, past the council president's office, down the central staff hallway.

[00:46:15] And we were having a nice conversation.

[00:46:17] And, you know, we got to the council chambers.

[00:46:19] You know, we went in and it was very positive.

[00:46:22] And so, and then obviously the next day, as you alluded, she made her remarks.

[00:46:30] And that is her right.

[00:46:31] Obviously, I recognize the difficulty of being isolated politically.

[00:46:37] But I don't think of the environment as being toxic.

[00:46:40] You know, we work with Councilmember Strauss.

[00:46:43] I work with him.

[00:46:44] And, you know, he works with us.

[00:46:45] It's right now with Councilmember Rink, who's next door to me.

[00:46:49] That happens.

[00:46:50] And so, yeah.

[00:46:53] So it's unfortunate.

[00:46:56] I'm just speaking from my piece.

[00:46:59] And I can anticipate a question from Erica on this.

[00:47:03] And should I get my answer now before she asks the question?

[00:47:09] Rebuttal first.

[00:47:10] A very question later.

[00:47:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:47:12] Well.

[00:47:12] This is a test, by the way.

[00:47:14] The advantage of doing this via Zoom versus just over the phone is that I can see Erica's reactions.

[00:47:19] Very transparent.

[00:47:21] I do not have a poker face.

[00:47:23] I mean, I guess, you know, I hear what you're saying.

[00:47:27] And, like, as somebody who's covered the Council for a long time, you know, the interactions you're describing to me sound very basic and not like something I would be surprised by.

[00:47:37] I've been more surprised by some of the things that you and others have said publicly that I think, you know, indicate a little more animosity.

[00:47:45] I mean, you have, you know, I mean, I would say you've blown up a little bit.

[00:47:49] I know the question.

[00:47:50] Yeah.

[00:47:50] But I just want to get it out for our listeners.

[00:47:53] You know, so.

[00:47:57] I'll give you.

[00:47:58] Now I lost the question.

[00:47:59] Erica.

[00:48:00] Ask my question for me.

[00:48:01] Erica, I'll answer the question.

[00:48:03] Because it comes up in this point.

[00:48:06] It feels a little bit like gaslighting, I guess, is what I'm saying.

[00:48:08] Well.

[00:48:09] That you're saying that the interactions have been positive.

[00:48:12] But Tammy said they weren't.

[00:48:14] Well, for me.

[00:48:15] For me.

[00:48:16] So I'll answer the question because I, even before you answer it, and it relates to being on the dais.

[00:48:21] And so during budget, for example, I was getting frustrated.

[00:48:27] This kind of goes back to my earlier point about doing the due diligence as it relates to the budget revenue and spending and so forth.

[00:48:33] Was that there were a lot of amendments coming out of nowhere that were looking to spend money.

[00:48:38] And then there was amendments on amendments.

[00:48:40] And it was very frustrating to me.

[00:48:43] And then Council Member Morales came out with her amendment for a project that she supported by taking money away from the Real-Time Crime Center.

[00:48:54] Not the CCTV as reported sometimes, but the Real-Time Crime Center.

[00:48:57] And that was, so I put extra emphasis to highlight a couple of things.

[00:49:03] One, building on the frustration of even my other colleagues in terms of these Council Budget Action Amendments.

[00:49:10] But here is a topic that went through committee that had amendments that had a lot of engagement, public engagement, and so forth.

[00:49:20] And went to the full council.

[00:49:21] And that money for the Real-Time Crime Center was approved.

[00:49:25] You know, it had all that back support going into the budget process.

[00:49:30] As opposed to some of these others that didn't have, you know, any committee work backing it up.

[00:49:36] And to be clear, she was trying to add funding back that had been cut in this budget for a project.

[00:49:42] Not, it wasn't a new project.

[00:49:43] It was restoring a cut.

[00:49:45] I mean, not to get too into the weeds, but that's where I live.

[00:49:48] Yes, yes.

[00:49:49] My apologies.

[00:49:50] And that's a fair point.

[00:49:51] But she was pulling it out of something, as I just described.

[00:49:55] And then I added, and, you know, here's the ironic thing is that we need these technology pieces with the automatic license plate reader bill, the CCTV bill, and then the Real-Time Crime Center bill, that combination.

[00:50:08] Because we're so understaffed.

[00:50:10] And so, yes, then I tied it to, going back to the beginning of this podcast in terms of the old council, I did tie it to that.

[00:50:17] And I was making that extra emphasis.

[00:50:20] So I was making that point.

[00:50:22] I was making it strong because I wanted to protect the Real-Time Crime Center and what we've been doing on public safety.

[00:50:27] It also reflected, you know, I was not happy with how the budget process was going in terms of all these amendments that didn't seem to have the backdrop of, like, committee work and so forth.

[00:50:39] And so I made that.

[00:50:41] And, by the way, the whole time I'm looking at Chair Strauss because I think one of the things is, like, I'm, like, staring her down.

[00:50:49] I didn't even see her.

[00:50:50] I was looking at Chair Strauss or the table and then the people in the council chamber.

[00:50:55] And so that was kind of like my look angle.

[00:50:58] And that was the reasoning behind why I made the press in terms of protecting the Real-Time Crime Center money, which, by the way, going back to coordination and the relationship, I had no clue about.

[00:51:09] It wasn't like I, you know, she had come to me saying, hey, you know, the public safety, you know, part of the general fund is, you know, big.

[00:51:16] It's half.

[00:51:17] And, you know, you can, you know, you can do without a little bit.

[00:51:20] I'm looking to do an amendment where we're going to take some money away from the Real-Time Crime Center.

[00:51:23] I believe you could still do the Real-Time Crime Center at just at a lower level.

[00:51:28] That never happened.

[00:51:29] This came as a total surprise out of nowhere for me.

[00:51:32] And so I'm looking to push to solidify and protect the work that we did in 2024 on public safety ahead of the budget.

[00:51:42] So that was that.

[00:51:44] So there wasn't any animosity directed at her.

[00:51:48] I was not happy that she tried to come out of the Real-Time Crime Center.

[00:51:52] But, you know, there was nothing more than that.

[00:51:55] You know, again, she's a professional.

[00:51:59] I've seen her at Seattle Storm Games.

[00:52:01] You know, I shouldn't share this, but her husband's given me two colonoscopies.

[00:52:05] You know, it's like, you know, so it's like, wow.

[00:52:07] You know, wow.

[00:52:09] You know, so it's like I have no.

[00:52:11] Public service announcement.

[00:52:12] Public service.

[00:52:13] Colonoscopy if you're over 40.

[00:52:14] You gotta go.

[00:52:14] I know some of our listeners are.

[00:52:16] Yes.

[00:52:17] And you should, by the way.

[00:52:18] Thank you for that, Erica.

[00:52:20] And so, again, I just think it's unfortunate.

[00:52:23] But I recognize, too, the stress.

[00:52:26] This is not an easy job.

[00:52:28] You know, like I said earlier, I get hit all the time in terms of public safety issues.

[00:52:33] Now, comprehensive plan.

[00:52:34] And these are serious.

[00:52:35] These are things that impact people in their heart.

[00:52:37] And they're coming at me strong.

[00:52:39] And I understand that.

[00:52:40] And I appreciate that.

[00:52:41] But it also means this is not an easy job because you have to make some tough decisions

[00:52:45] sometimes going about functioning cities to Sandeep's questions.

[00:52:49] And so I recognize it's hard.

[00:52:50] And it can only be that much more harder when you're isolated politically.

[00:52:55] Here, I've got a lot of, you know, colleagues who were, you know, all these eight one

[00:52:59] votes that we had in public safety.

[00:53:00] But you know what?

[00:53:01] It's not always going to be that way.

[00:53:02] Even on this less lethal bill, there's variations on this.

[00:53:06] We're not a monolithic cohort.

[00:53:07] I mean, we are a cohort, like with the new people.

[00:53:10] But, and we're friends.

[00:53:11] We grew up together as, you know, in the political world during a campaign.

[00:53:15] But we're not all the same.

[00:53:17] And that kind of came out in budget.

[00:53:18] And you'll see a bit of this in less lethal weapons, too, that everybody's not quite lined

[00:53:24] up.

[00:53:24] And this is where being a chair, going back to good governance, I'm working to, with

[00:53:29] my colleagues in terms of, hey, what can we do?

[00:53:31] Working with the government.

[00:53:32] This adds, you know, this specific bill has the additional pieces with the federal monitor

[00:53:36] and the like.

[00:53:37] But, you know, it is about working together.

[00:53:40] And so it's difficult.

[00:53:42] And so I can imagine for Tammy being isolated politically on the council that it was that

[00:53:49] much harder.

[00:53:50] And then she got frustrated with her inability to achieve things.

[00:53:54] But, you know, at the same time, in her committee, and I was not land use.

[00:53:58] But instead of saying, like you and others have said, like, hey, why don't you just do

[00:54:02] this?

[00:54:12] Why didn't we do this?

[00:54:13] This program made sense.

[00:54:15] Possibly.

[00:54:16] But my question is, why couldn't four of her colleagues on the committee get to yes on

[00:54:21] that bill that she was pushing, including her vice chair, who is the former chair of

[00:54:24] the committee, who knows land use very well?

[00:54:28] So my question is, why couldn't four of them get to yes, or at least three?

[00:54:34] And so that's how I look at it.

[00:54:36] And by the way, that goes to you have to work the floor.

[00:54:39] You know, so this is there's a bit of a two way street piece to this.

[00:54:42] But again, I want to say that I respect her.

[00:54:45] I recognize that she was an isolated position.

[00:54:48] I view her as a professional.

[00:54:50] And, you know, in terms of that example, Erica, you know, I respected her, you know,

[00:54:57] in terms of what she was doing.

[00:54:58] But I did not want, you know, pulling money from the real time crime center.

[00:55:02] And this was built on other amendments that were just kind of coming out of nowhere.

[00:55:05] And so I really put the extra emphasis on.

[00:55:09] And can I just say one thing, too, because this is because I am a regular listener.

[00:55:13] And I want to thank David because I never thought that she was lazy.

[00:55:18] I think she's a professional.

[00:55:20] I never thought that she was lazy.

[00:55:21] I think that, you know, it is a just a difficult situation.

[00:55:26] And that's a response to my characterization.

[00:55:29] To be clear.

[00:55:31] That, you know, there's some criticism.

[00:55:34] I just want to establish my bona fides as a regular podcast.

[00:55:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:55:38] No, no.

[00:55:38] You're paying attention.

[00:55:39] You get a gold star.

[00:55:41] Go back and listen to the Tammy Morales episode if you want to hear that, listeners.

[00:55:46] It's one of our most downloaded episodes of 2024, actually.

[00:55:50] Yeah, I'm always shocked when people, I had a council member responding to something I said

[00:55:55] on Blue Sky last night and on a phone call that was like from, you know, a month ago.

[00:56:01] And I'm always shocked.

[00:56:02] Yeah.

[00:56:03] People actually.

[00:56:03] We feel like we're like, we're just screaming into the wilderness over here.

[00:56:06] But people actually listen.

[00:56:08] No, I listen.

[00:56:08] And by the way, can I say, Erica, you know, speaking of respect, I respect you and your

[00:56:13] positions as well because, and I listen, you know, and, you know, it goes into how I approach

[00:56:20] amendments maybe or, and I also know that, you know, others in this world will look at

[00:56:25] your writing and then they'll include it in theirs and other organizations.

[00:56:30] And so, again, like Tammy, you and I are not necessarily in the same lane, but I recognize,

[00:56:38] you know, smart questions when I hear them.

[00:56:40] You know, one thing that has come up a lot in recent months with, you know, the complaints

[00:56:46] against former Chief Diaz and others as well was that, you know, there's a culture of misogyny

[00:56:53] and discrimination at the police department.

[00:56:56] And I'm wondering if there are some concrete steps that you're going to support SPD taking

[00:57:02] to improve its culture so that it actually can hire more women and get to the goal of having

[00:57:07] 30 percent women recruits by 2030.

[00:57:11] To the point that I just made, Erica, is we were having our 30 for 30 update, which became

[00:57:18] a baseline update.

[00:57:19] It was supposed to be an update on the previous 30 by 30, but it became like a reset, you know,

[00:57:25] having the whole baseline and then the addition of what we're doing for 30 by 30 with SPD.

[00:57:30] And we were going to continue that work on 30 by 30 and women in the force moving forward.

[00:57:37] And the questions, you know, these things happen sometimes.

[00:57:41] They kind of went to more of the practical pieces of serving in the force as a woman.

[00:57:46] And we got away from those bigger picture pieces.

[00:57:49] And so you made a very valid point after that meeting is that we need to look at how do we

[00:57:55] change the culture in terms of, you know, the relationship to women in the force.

[00:58:02] And, you know, and so that was a very important point that wasn't really brought up in that

[00:58:06] 30 by 30 update.

[00:58:07] So we'll ensure that it is on the next one because it is key.

[00:58:10] And I recognize that as being key from my time in the Navy.

[00:58:15] You know, the Navy has gone through this as well.

[00:58:17] And this has happened during the course of my career from the old Navy to new Navy.

[00:58:21] And it takes time and takes effort.

[00:58:23] And what it means is leaders need to be leading and including women and, you know,

[00:58:29] listening to them and to incorporate, you know, their work and everything else as part of

[00:58:34] the normal process.

[00:58:36] You know, this is when we need to develop sergeants, for example, and women sergeants,

[00:58:40] but we need to do it from a proper leadership piece.

[00:58:43] So then they, and by showing that the proper way of doing it and not allowing that boys club

[00:58:50] kind of mentality that we really push forward in terms of the point that you were making

[00:58:56] that it wasn't addressed.

[00:58:57] And I think that's really important.

[00:58:59] And an important part of that is if people do raise their hand or raise their voice as

[00:59:04] it relates to something that happens in the SPD, we need to hear it.

[00:59:09] And one of the things that's, you know, come out recently, and you don't know this,

[00:59:14] but it's like, hey, what can we do to ensure that the accountability partners can do their

[00:59:19] job that we can do our job as the council and oversight as it relates to women in the force

[00:59:24] in terms of those that have EEO complaints, you know, equal employment opportunity complaints.

[00:59:30] And how do we do that?

[00:59:32] Looking at the Chief Diaz situation.

[00:59:35] And so we're going to be looking at, like, Chief of Police Investigations, by the way.

[00:59:40] That's going to be another ordinance that we look at.

[00:59:42] And tied to that is, hey, what are we doing in terms of EEO?

[00:59:46] And, you know, how can we look at, you know, doing it right?

[00:59:50] Because the Diaz investigation highlighted some challenges there.

[00:59:55] And so out of that, there's going to be some changes that I think will protect the confidentiality

[01:00:02] if somebody's bringing something forward.

[01:00:04] And so there's going to be some looks at that in terms of maybe, you know, EEO and OPA.

[01:00:11] And so we're going to be looking at that.

[01:00:14] And so I take it seriously.

[01:00:16] And, you know, so this is something that ties back to the point, your criticism, basically,

[01:00:20] of our committee meeting, because we didn't highlight that aspect of the 30 by 30 meeting.

[01:00:25] And I think that's important.

[01:00:27] And I'll just add, too, that I've met with Chief Barnes.

[01:00:32] I met with him back in November as part of the process.

[01:00:35] And he comes from a very strong position, as I see, in terms of his background and the work

[01:00:40] that he's done on 30 by 30.

[01:00:43] And so I think that with Chief Rohr moving on, I think we'll be in a good place with Chief

[01:00:48] Barnes coming on board in this area.

[01:00:50] But don't worry, the City Council will do its oversight, its accountability as well.

[01:00:56] Not just me as the chair, but as you know, Council Member Moore, my vice chair, Saka, and the like.

[01:01:02] Bob Kettle, let's end it there.

[01:01:04] Thank you so much for joining us.

[01:01:06] Well, thank you very much.

[01:01:07] I really appreciate the opportunity.

[01:01:08] And really, it was great having this discussion.

[01:01:11] Council Member, it's been great to have you.

[01:01:14] We'll do it again.

[01:01:15] Yeah, really enjoyed this.

[01:01:17] Thank you, Council Member.

[01:01:18] Thank you again.

[01:01:20] All right, that's it for another edition of Seattle Nice.

[01:01:22] I'm David Hyde.

[01:01:23] She's Erica C. Barnett.

[01:01:25] He's Sandeep Kaushik.

[01:01:27] And he is Bob Kettle, Council Member Bob Kettle.

[01:01:30] Our editor is Quinn Waller.

[01:01:31] And our Patreon supporters are you at patreon.com slash seattlennice.

[01:01:36] And I just want to say, with all the shout-outs for the Seattle channel and his podcast,

[01:01:40] I'm hoping at some point that Brian Callahan will become a Patreon donor.

[01:01:46] Because we obviously support him.

[01:01:48] Yeah, he's definitely coming to the show.

[01:01:50] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:01:51] Thanks, everybody.

[01:01:52] I think he's award-winning, just like the channel.

[01:01:54] Sorry.

[01:01:56] Award-winning.

[01:01:56] Award-winning broadcaster, Brian Callahan.

[01:01:59] Award-winning Brian Callahan.