Assessor Allegedly Stalks, Ethics Walks, and the Culture War Rocks Seattle

[00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the latest edition of Seattle Nice. I'm David Hyde here with Erica C. Barnett of Publicola. Erica, what's up? What's up, David? We're high energy today because it's not 8 a.m. It's not 8 a.m., yeah. The last time we recorded. Right, it's 9 a.m. on a Friday. Also here, Sandeep Kaushik, chipper as always. It's sunny outside. I don't know. Yeah, it's Friday. I'm feeling good, yeah.

[00:00:34] T-G-I-F. Okay, on today's show, the culture wars exploding on the streets of Seattle. King County Assessor John Arthur Wilson, who's running for King County Exec, has a big problem. Erica's got a big scoop. But first, Kathy Moore on the Seattle City Council withdrawing her bill to lower ethical standards for council members. I'm quoting here from Erica's tweet because she's got this scoop for us right now. Erica, what is happening? Well, first, give us a little bit of background on this ethical standards bill.

[00:01:04] And why is Kathy Moore now rethinking it? Yeah, well, I've been covering the shit out of this bill just to earn us our X rating or whatever it is on our podcast app. But I've been covering the shit out of this bill because it is, and we've talked about it before, because it's a bill that no one was asking for except the Seattle City Council to allow them to vote on issues where they have a personal financial conflict of interest.

[00:01:31] This is widely seen as teeing up a vote that's coming up on some tenants' rights bills. The council wants to overturn or some on the council want to overturn tenants' rights bills passed under the last council. And two of the council members are landlords and would have to recuse themselves under the current law. The legislation would have said that they merely have to disclose that they have these conflicts. And no one was clamoring for this bill. Everyone was clamoring against it.

[00:01:59] I went to meeting after meeting where, you know, dozens of people showed up to say, why are you doing this? We don't want this. And so Kathy Moore announced just minutes before we're recording that she is going to withdraw this bill, as you mentioned. And she is allegedly going to bring it back. So it's not dead dead, but we'll see. It was pretty unpopular and might not have won a vote when it was going to be up at the full council. There was some skepticism on the council itself.

[00:02:28] You said nobody is clamoring. I imagine landlords are clamoring. Do landlords clamor? Well, I mean, you know. Not in chambers, apparently. Yeah, not in chambers. But also, I mean, when you change the ethics standards for the city council, you're changing it for every city council that comes after you, too. And so it would be pretty short-sighted to say, let's change the ethics rules so that, you know, we can people can vote when they have a conflict. Yeah.

[00:02:58] Just for one vote. And accept planes from the United Arab Emirates, or I forget whoever sent the plane to Trump. Anyway, Sandeep, what do you think of this? What are you hearing behind the scenes? What are people whispering to you behind closed doors about this issue? On the policy side, I'm going to hang my hat on the fact that this was recommended by the head of Seattle Ethics, Wayne Barnett, right? You know, so there's that, right? The politics of this, you know, have clearly been bad. It looks – the optics of it look bad.

[00:03:27] And I thought the tell was when it passed out of committee last week, you know, it's a five-member committee, but three of the members abstained. It was a 2-0 vote to pass it out of committee. And so I think that tells you all you need to know about the fraught politics of it that, you know, Bob – I think it was Bob Kettle, the council president, Sarah Nelson, and Joy Hollingsworth were the three committee members who abstained, right? And council president Nelson is on the ballot this year. Two others abstained from it.

[00:03:57] So I think that was a kind of tacit recognition that the politics of this were pretty fraught. Erica, it's all about politics. Yeah, I mean, I think that those abstentions, those rather ironic abstentions from the vote to no longer require abstentions are pretty telling. I talked to Bob Kettle briefly this week at City Hall, and he said, you know, I don't know why you're assuming that I'm a yes vote on this.

[00:04:27] And he was apparently planning to propose an amendment that would have put it into effect after this council is up for re-election. So it wouldn't have gone into effect until 2028, meaning it wouldn't have been in effect for those landlord-tenant laws. And Mark Solomon, another council member I talked to yesterday, told me that he was a no vote unless they could reinsert recusal into the legislation.

[00:04:51] And he told me that some of the amendments that were inserted in there, which I wrote about on Publicola, were not adequate. They didn't do a good enough job to make him convinced that it's actually improving the ethics standard. So he told me he was a no. And then last thing, I mean, if it was a 5-4 vote, the mayor, Mayor Harrell, has been pretty skeptical about this. He voted against a similar bill when he was on the city council. And I asked his office whether he would veto.

[00:05:19] And they declined to say yes or no, but, you know, said, well, basically we'll get to that when we get to that. But if it had been a 5-4 vote, that veto, the council would not have been able to override it. So, you know, just a really tricky path for this bill if it had gone forward. Yeah, I think Erica's right about this. I think that it's not at all clear that there were 5 votes that supported it. Remember, the committee votes only 2-0, right? So, and that's interesting, Erica, what some of the council members were telling you.

[00:05:48] And I do think from what I have heard from insiders that there was a very real chance that the mayor might have vetoed it if they had passed it. So I think more than a tricky path, it was starting to look like there wasn't much of a path that may be to get this over the finish line and get it enacted this year. So, yeah, it's getting shelved. We'll see whether it comes back. Yeah, it'd be a great campaign slogan. You know, I'm running on rolling back ethics standards.

[00:06:17] I do think that, you know, this really does speak to the power of the public to influence this council. I mean, you know, and as, you know, a lot of people have been pointing out on Blue Sky and elsewhere, what a kind of colossal waste of time this was. I mean, people were showing up, you know, week after week after week.

[00:06:36] And, you know, we're talking about like Democratic Party people, you know, meeting with city council members, lobbying the hell out of this issue because there was basically universal opposition to this, as we've discussed before, you know, among the public. And I think the public really did push back on this in a way that was pretty influential with the council.

[00:06:54] I think, you know, sometimes my co-host on this podcast, you know, pooh-poohs the idea of people showing up for public comment and, you know, making a stink about things. But we've seen it with the reduction in gig worker minimum wages, which was also shelved. And in this, and I really think if the public hadn't shown up and said how much they opposed this, it would have just passed.

[00:07:21] By public, we mean activists that are showing up who are... I mean, there are a lot of people who have never shown up to council before. I've interviewed a lot of them. So, yes, when you say activists, that implies something. And, yeah. So you're saying this is John Q. Public. I'm saying it's both. Jane Q. Public. I'm saying it's both. I mean, I'm saying it was overwhelming. But what I was going to say before I was so not rudely interrupted was just, you know, I mean, I have no doubt that the politics of this are bad for the Seattle City Council. And I think that Sandeep agrees with that. So we're all in agreement.

[00:07:51] Moving on. King County Assessor John Arthur Wilson running for county executive. Erica, you got the scoop this week in Publicola.com about this story. Wilson accused of stalking and harassment by his domestic partner, right, or former domestic partner. And I have to say, I mean, this week, it's just getting weird. Weirder and weirder. Yeah.

[00:08:15] I mean, so this is a guy who has been accused of harassment and stalking in the past. John Arthur Wilson, his partner is a public affair, prominent public affairs consultant. And she's gotten a restraining order against him before. They've reconciled. But, I mean, honestly, the weirdest thing about this story to me. So she's she's accusing him of harassment now and stalking.

[00:08:39] It's very, very creepy stuff, you know, and very upsetting the way that he, you know, allegedly. Well, I mean, I don't think he's denying any of this, honestly, you know, texted her and texted her and called and called and called, would show up at her house. Allegedly was tracking her last year. And, you know, and so it's very disturbing. What was wild to me was when I reached out to to John, he said, oh, there's no restraining order. We're in a relationship. We're fine.

[00:09:09] Like she she regrets it. And and then about two seconds later, I got an email from from Lee Keller, the his domestic partner. She's trying to dissolve the partnership. But and she said, John does not speak for me. And she sent me a statement saying that they are very much not together and that he is not authorized to speak for her. And she's moving forward with all this. So, you know, it's it's a very it's a very disturbing story. It's a second story of this kind.

[00:09:39] She got a restraining order almost a year ago. The Seattle Times reported on it. And and now basically everyone, you know, who's running for election, who's not running for election, every elected official in the region pretty much is asking for him to step down as county assessor.

[00:09:55] Yeah. But I mean, both of the other two candidates who are running for King County executive, you know, Girmay Zahalai and Claudia Belducci, who are both on the King County Council, had yesterday called for him to to resign and to drop out of the King County executives race. But also the mayor of Seattle put out a strong statement to this to that effect. Rod Dembowski, another King County council member, made the same call. And there are some others as well.

[00:10:23] King County executive Shannon Braddock as well. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I wouldn't be I would expect that there will be more such calls coming forward. I actually was surprised when this story, when this first of all, this was a big scoop by Erica this week on the second restraining order. Congrats on that. And, Eric, I a thousand percent agree with you reading your story.

[00:10:46] And the thing that really took it to the next level of seeing John's response to you where he's basically said they're still in a relationship. And then Lee Keller denying that. And he was saying the restraining order isn't in place and she's telling you it is. And like, you're like, whoa, that's fucked up. And the court record reflects that it still is, too. Yeah. Right. His response, I mean, it's just to state of mind when he's being accused of stalking and harassment.

[00:11:16] Like, we're still in a relationship. It's just weird. I mean, combined with the part where, you know, contacting the employer of a man she had dated to falsely accuse him of sexually assaulting her. Or that whole thing. I mean. That's huge. That to me is also something that's been, you know, underappreciated.

[00:11:37] What we're talking about here is an accusation that a public official called some employer to say the employee falsely accused the employee of having committed sexual assault and tried to get that person fired. Right. I mean, if that is true and it doesn't seem like there's been a denial that that happened, that's the whole thing. Look, I've known John Arthur Wilson, the assessor, for many, many years.

[00:12:06] You know, my first job in politics and government was working for the King County executive back in I started in 2005 for Ron Sims. John Arthur had been a it was not in the office then, but had previously been a chief of staff for Ron. And so I got to know him in that era. I always liked him and have gotten along with him. But, but, but big but when you see stuff like this, I'm sorry, but it's disqualifying.

[00:12:34] You should not be in a position of public trust while engaging in these kinds of, you know, extremely. Extremely. Troubling behaviors. Right. And, you know, whatever happens with the restraining orders or not, you know, this I was surprised when this first broke last year that there wasn't more fallout from it at that time. Yeah. And I and I asked this yesterday because I have the exact same reaction.

[00:13:01] When I saw this, why are people not calling on this guy to resign? I mean, it's the stuff this behavior is like criminal. And, you know, and I haven't really gotten a satisfactory answer. I was on a press call with Claudia Balducci and some other women who are calling on him to resign yesterday.

[00:13:20] And not to put Claudia on blast, because I think this is on the heads of everybody who is in public office who did not call on him to resign the first time because those allegations, you know, which Sandeep was describing were horrible. And, you know, I'm frankly glad to see that everybody that the mayor and, you know, all these folks who are, you know, just happen to be running for election this year are called except for Shannon Braddock.

[00:13:45] Of course, she's the interim King County executive, but I'm glad to see that they're calling on him to resign now. I wish they had done so a year ago, and I think they would have been more than justified. And, you know, and their silence is kind of deafening at that time was kind of deafening.

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[00:14:34] Armed or unarmed agents trained in de-escalation and advanced first aid are available 24-7. More information at HearthProtection.org. Hearth Protection. Don't let fear make your world smaller. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, I want to be charitable people. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[00:15:00] I want to sort of do the caveats of, you know, these are allegations there hasn't been, you know, that have not been adjudicated and all of that. But, you know, there's enough. I thought there was enough in the first restraining order filing. But certainly with this additional filing and information in it and then text messages that are being produced and, you know, and that sort of stuff. As well as, yeah, this idea that a public official had called somebody's employer to try to get them fired on the, you know.

[00:15:30] Well, not just that. Yeah, I mean, and like tracking his partner everywhere she went, you know, I mean, just kind of this, you know, there's a description of the behavior. And I think, you know, talking about those caveats, I mean, Joel Connolly brought this up on the call yesterday. You know, well, what's going to happen if all this turns out to be untrue? You know, who's going to repair John Wilson's reputation? What about him? And I mean, you know, I can't remember who on the call pointed this out, but he hasn't denied any of this.

[00:16:00] He's not denying the behavior. He's just basically said that relationships are messy and that they have a messy relationship, but it's all good now. And that is like, I mean, you know, I'll just say that's classic abuser behavior. And so it's those those matters are not being adjudicated because he hasn't denied them.

[00:16:22] The issue is whether this behavior, you know, merits a well, there's two issues, whether it merits a restraining order and, you know, and whether he has at the county level, you know, misused county property like because some of these calls apparently and texts apparently occurred on his county phone. And, you know, and whether he's fit for public office. We don't know who the employer is or this man is who dated her, who. We do. It's in the.

[00:16:51] We do know that. Yeah. Wilson. He deserves my wrath. Fuck him and tough shit if he gets fired. I mean, those statements on top of everything else. This is kind of like that's it's just interesting to hear Connelly. I mean, yes. Alleged, alleged, alleged. We do need to stick to those things. But, you know, at some point. Yeah. All right. Well, speaking of harassment, let's turn to the latest battle in Seattle.

[00:17:18] A Christian fundamentalist group called Mayday USA brought its. I hadn't heard of this phrase before. Worship warfare movement to Seattle holding two anti-trans and anti-abortion rallies. The first one at Cal Anderson Park last weekend, another on Tuesday, 31 people total arrested. These were all counter protesters, according to the reports that I've seen.

[00:17:42] But, Erica, Mayor Bruce Harrell being called out for allowing the permitting of this rally at Cal Anderson Park in the heart of Capitol Hill, Seattle's historic LGBTQ neighborhood. What do you think of that accusation that he should have steered the protest somewhere else? I kind of think that's a fair criticism.

[00:18:07] You know, why not steer it to, I don't know where, West Seattle, somewhere else? Because the mayor has the power to do that. So why let it take place at Cal Anderson Park of all places? I mean, I think it's tricky. And it gets into the complexities of when they were issuing this permit, how many places. Because they originally asked for a permit between 1st and 2nd Avenues on, I believe, Pike or Pine Street.

[00:18:35] And it was determined that 500 people wouldn't fit there. And so then they asked for Cal Anderson and were granted Cal Anderson. And to me, I mean, there is a question of if there was another park available that would have accommodated this crowd should they have steered it there, probably. We don't know exactly what happened and how many parks were available that weekend. But it was obviously a super volatile situation. The reason I say it's tricky is, you know, it's free speech.

[00:19:03] And the city is not allowed to make decisions based on content. So what they could, what they can make decisions based on, I think the only way that they're probably going to get nailed on this, if they are, is they can say this group has caused problems in the past or, you know, has done something improper. I don't know that this group has ever protested in Seattle before. So I think that they'd have to walk a really tricky line. But if there was another park available, I mean, yeah, why not steer it there?

[00:19:32] Why not put it, you know, in Denny Park over in South Lake Union or, you know, just somewhere else that they could still say is central, but not like right in the middle of Capitol Hill? Look, this is a pretty big fuck up, I think, on multiple levels in which no one really comes out looking good from my perspective. Right. I mean, first of all, there's a very real First Amendment issue here.

[00:19:59] Right. The city is not allowed to discriminate based on viewpoint. That's, you know, a straight up violation of the, you know, First Amendment protections. But this situation is more complicated because, as Erica mentions, it wasn't like this, you know, evangelical conservative Christian group had demanded that they wanted to do this at Cal Anderson Park,

[00:20:26] you know, in the middle of the city's historic LGBTQ neighborhood. They had asked for a different location. And the pastor actually released some emails showing that it was actually a staffer at OED, at the Office of Economic Development, who had then emailed back and said, you can't do it down there by Pike Place Market because of, you know, size, you know, and scale issues. Right. Which is something the city can regulate.

[00:20:52] And it was the staffer who suggested, you know, you could do it at Cal Anderson or South Lake Union Park. And so it was an email to them that led them to then ask for Cal Anderson from the parks department for the permit. And so the city could have come back, you know, if there's, look, I think it would have been smart for people at the city to put some thought into this and said, boy, it'd be a bad idea to recommend Cal Anderson Park to them because that is going to be seen as inherently provocative.

[00:21:18] And they could have suggested just, hey, what about South Lake Union Park? Do it over there. I think if it had been there, it would have been there would have been less of a blow up. The reason it blew up is that obviously it drew a ton of counter protesters. There were the cops had to keep them apart. There were 23 people arrested on the counter protester side, which has raised a whole bunch of, you know, tensions.

[00:21:41] And then to add further fuel to the fire, the I thought the statement coming out of the mayor's office on this, there were two statements really. Yeah. Kind of, kind of added Tinder to what was already, you know, a tense situation when they could have sort of tried to come at it a little differently to calm the waters and sort of pointed out like, look, there's a first amendment issue here. People have a, whatever you think of their views, they have a right to state them.

[00:22:09] But you also have a right to protest, but keep it peaceful. You know, they could have been a calmer statement like that and said it became kind of incendiary. It riled up the conservatives who then are all over social media. And now the Trump administration is, you know, saying they're going to weigh in here and do God knows what. And the whole thing has turned into a big chaotic mess. And Erica, as you pointed out in your write-up of this, the conservatives are coming back later in August. And holy shit, what is that going to look like?

[00:22:38] FBI Director Dan Bongino, posting on X, allegations of targeted violence against religious groups at the Seattle concert. Freedom of religion isn't a suggestion. So First Amendment in two senses, I guess, being raised here potentially by the Trump administration and the FBI. I will also say, though, West Need had the column in the Seattle Times about this.

[00:23:02] And the part, you know, if they could have steered it in a different, less contentious spot, as Katie Wilson says, that seems like that could have been a good idea if it was legal. You know, still allowing the protest, but allowing it somewhere in a less contentious place. But, you know, I would like to see leaders like Katie Wilson and others, like Bruce Harrell did, calling out the counter-protesters who got arrested because they really are playing into the right's hands.

[00:23:28] I mean, can't we see how much the Trump administration, the FBI, the right-wing media loves it when we do this? So they should comply in advance. So complying is not the word. I mean, the target here of our protests, presumably as Seattleites, is this right-wing group, Mayday, fuck whatever they're called, and their views.

[00:23:51] So I applaud Bruce Harrell for calling out the anarchists he called them, but whoever they were who were like counter-protesting that way. When will we ever learn that that kind of shit just doesn't fly politically, doesn't work? It's not effective politics. If this is about politics, then don't do shit that's dumb politics. Okay, so you weren't at either protest.

[00:24:15] And I guess you're also saying that, you know, retroactively in 2020, all of the arrests and all of the, you know, head-cracking and pepper balls and all the stuff that police did and got in trouble for was justified. You know what I'm saying? Is that in 1968, when anti-Vietnam War protesters from Berkeley campus went to Oakland and started like burning cars in poor people's neighborhoods, it was stupid. That's not what's happening here whatsoever.

[00:24:42] My point is there are situations where protests aren't effective politics. Okay, so you weren't at either one. And this is clearly one of them. You weren't at either one. Yeah, but I can read history and understand it. Yeah, well, you could also do reporting and go there and see that what was happening. I was not at the one on Saturday. I've been out of town. I was at the one on Tuesday, which we haven't talked about all day. And police were arresting people. They arrested eight people. And I saw four of those arrests.

[00:25:11] And one of them was actually a protester who, I think, touched Jonathan Cho. And Cho beat him with a club. And the protester was arrested. So that's on video. And, you know, I would say in most of these cases, it is not a great idea to take the word of Seattle police that protesters were, I think you said, agitating or resisting or something. All 31 arrested were the counter protesters. Yep. Yes, they were.

[00:25:39] The fact that they were counter protesters and that they were the ones that were arrested, to me, raises the question of why police were not targeting and why, in fact, are they basically serving as security for the protesters who are coming into our community to spread their anti-trans, anti-choice message. I don't think that the fact that police target, you know, protesters, hippies, you know, whatever through history is evidence that those people are in the wrong.

[00:26:06] I think it's evidence that police target those people because they see them as the ones being in the wrong. And, you know, and if I could finish my point about the arrests on Tuesday, I witnessed four of them and they were not clashing with police. They were not shoving police. I think that we need to be extremely skeptical as reporters of reports that police files saying, oh, this person, you know, was resisting arrest.

[00:26:32] Oh, this person touched my hand and I felt like my pinky might be broken. I think we need to be extremely skeptical, given the history of the police, of lying about that. And instead of saying, what were the protesters doing wrong and maybe they should have backed off and not been there and stayed home. You know, I think we should be saying, I don't know. Do we trust these police accounts, given how many times they've lied about this kind of shit in the past? All 31 of the arrests were the protesters. That's all I'm going on.

[00:27:00] And what I'm saying is whoever's getting arrested, whatever it is that they're doing. Yeah, I don't only blame the cops for that. It's possible that some of those arrests were illegitimate. But like all 31, Erica, I said I witnessed four and the four that I witnessed. I do not think they needed to result in arrest. And I also watched the police roll out every time there's any kind of yelling. And, you know, and I saw 30 bike cops descend on two people yelling at each other over and over again in many different situations all day on Tuesday.

[00:27:29] And we're talking about these specific protests, not protests in the 60s and not protests in the 80s. OK, I'm done. So first of all, arrests aside and the legitimacy of the arrests, the arrests themselves, the footage that comes out of protests like this of the counter protesters, like, you know, yelling whatever angry shit and abuse at some of these, you know, Christian types walking out of the event and stuff like that,

[00:27:55] which is all over fucking social media, you know, has, you know, obviously, as we talked about, brought the Trump people down, just does not look good to normie audiences. So, yes, I think the counter protesters are political dumpshits. That said, in their tactics, you know, not that they shouldn't protest this stuff, not that some of the views being expressed aren't, you know. But they should be civil and polite and not say fuck you, badgers.

[00:28:19] Well, there are other ways to do it that probably play better with joke you public than the way some of these dumb shits do it. David, but going beyond that, too, I think you've given both way too much credit, both to the mayor and to Katie Wilson. Like, the mayor's initial statement was not some condemnation of, you know, Antifa-style protests. It was largely some comments.

[00:28:43] Yeah, while true, probably weren't very politically helpful in terms of calming the waters of this situation about the Mayday conservative Christians. And Katie Wilson's statement was, this is a big demerit for her. She was basically like, why was this permitted at all? You should have just not allowed this to happen. She said steer it to a different location. Yeah, I think you're mischaracterizing her statement. I'm looking at it right now.

[00:29:11] And she didn't say they shouldn't have allowed it at all. She said they should have directed the Parks Department to steer the rally to a less contentious spot. And they should have worked with SPD on a plan for crowd control focused on de-escalation and keeping everyone safe. Going back to the issue of whether they can be denied a permit again. So the rally in August is a different group that's allegedly happening in Cal Anderson Park. We'll see what happens between now and then.

[00:29:35] But this particular group on Tuesday, what was wild to me is that, you know, they didn't need to have a permit to be in City Hall Plaza, which is where they were. They could set up there if they wanted. They also didn't need to have police protection. You know, they started shutting down the streets at 1.30 in the afternoon for a 5 o'clock event, you know, inconveniencing everybody downtown, riding the bus, whatever. But they were not allowed to have the speaker stacks, the massive amounts of equipment, the diesel generator that they set up.

[00:30:05] I mean, I have photos on Publicola of, like, all their equipment once they had loaded it back in. But, you know, police were, like, just providing security while they set up all this illegal equipment that they didn't have an amplification permit for. City Hall is right there. They could have shut it down. And they let it go on. And they let it go on long past the, you know, the supposed end time that they had said it was going to be at. And, I mean, what they were doing was a violation.

[00:30:31] And I think in the future, I mean, they're obviously not going to do this because they, I mean, it seems to me obvious because they let them have this, you know, massive, loud rock concert. But in the future, they could say, look, you have a history of violating the city's rules. And so we're not going to permit you. And they can do that under city law. I'm sure there was bad behavior on the part of these, you know, right wingers and directed at trans people. And that's terrible.

[00:30:59] I also very clearly some of the counter protesters behaved in ways I thought look pretty bad and are politically counterproductive. This ended up turning into a big shit show and setting up even bigger shit shows down the road. And there may have been there were a number of opportunities where there were some better, you know, if not quite off ramps, some sort of de-escalation ramps that weren't taken. And that's unfortunate. I don't think the counter protesters look good.

[00:31:27] The Christians were clearly were clearly, you know, I mean, out there to provoke and create problems. They were horrible. They were horrible people saying horrible things. Jonathan Cho, like. But while the city didn't handle, I don't think handled it right. I mean, nobody comes out of this looking very good. It seems to me. All right. So, so Sandeep gets the last word. That's it for another edition of Seattle Nice.

[00:31:53] I'm David Hyde with my friend Erica C. Barnett of Publicola and my other friend Sandeep Kaushik, political consultant, and our other friend Quinn Waller, our editor. Thank you, Quinn. Thanks, everybody, so much for listening.