Anti-"strip club" petitioners and Seattle's debate about crowd control

[00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the latest edition of Seattle Nice. I'm David Hyde, here as always with Erica C. Barnett of Publicola and also the preferred guest of pretty much every political podcast here in Seattle. I was just watching you on News, Views, and Brews. You just show up everywhere, Erica.

[00:00:26] You were watching me? Wow. I forgot that there's a video version. That's awesome.

[00:00:31] Yeah, there's a video version. Yeah. Also here with us, Sandeep Kaushik, who was on KUOW's Year in Review last night. Hello, Sandeep.

[00:00:39] Hey, David. We're kind of media whores, I guess, but... Speak for yourself.

[00:00:46] Yeah, congratulations to you and to KW and all my former colleagues for helping promote the Seattle Nice podcast. May they continue to do so.

[00:00:54] This week, we've got like incredible reporting from Erica C. Barnett to get into and let's just get straight into it.

[00:01:02] We're starting with the Seattle City Council deciding to take a look at some previous city council bans on what they call less lethal weapons.

[00:01:14] Explain what this is all about, please.

[00:01:16] This is about the Seattle Police Department's use of so-called less lethal weapons for crowd control, which include things like tear gas, like blast balls, like pepper spray.

[00:01:26] So what is that, like not billy clubs or is that basically what we're talking about?

[00:01:30] Well, it's funny you would bring billy clubs up because billy clubs are actually an example of a less lethal weapon that SPD really doesn't want to use.

[00:01:37] And so they have argued that they need access to all these different types of other weapons in order sort of not to use the things that they prefer not to use.

[00:01:45] So there's been an ongoing debate about this for many years, actually, but it really heated up significantly in 2020 after the protests about police brutality erupted into police brutality.

[00:01:59] And so there have been efforts since then.

[00:02:02] As you mentioned, there was a ban on using any of these weapons that was never put into effect because the federal judge that is overseeing a consent decree with SPD said that it's not it's not workable.

[00:02:15] Essentially, you can't ban all of these weapons.

[00:02:17] City council came back, passed another ordinance that has some restrictions on these weapons.

[00:02:21] But SPD did not decide to obey that ordinance, which is actually still in effect.

[00:02:27] And they've created their own policies.

[00:02:30] So what the city council is discussing right now is essentially whether to let SPD just create its own policies and not legislate on this stuff or whether it needs a little more oversight.

[00:02:41] And before we go to Sandeep, what's the controversy around this?

[00:02:45] I mean, the controversy is really around a couple of things.

[00:02:48] I mean, one is some of the specific weapons.

[00:02:50] There's these weapons called blast balls that are essentially grenades that don't shoot out lethal fragments.

[00:02:57] They either emit like chemical like pepper spray and or they shoot out, you know, they explode and can really hurt people.

[00:03:05] So that particular weapon is really controversial.

[00:03:08] The city has tried in the past to ban them.

[00:03:11] And so there's some discussion on the council about whether to place more restrictions specifically on those.

[00:03:18] And then there's a broader controversy or issue, I would say, around whether SPD should be trusted or can be trusted to just come up with its own policy.

[00:03:28] And, you know, whether it is appropriate for the city to legislate some of this stuff.

[00:03:33] And I think the last city council believed it was appropriate for them to pass some laws.

[00:03:38] And the current city council and the mayor believe it's appropriate to just leave it up to the police and set some kind of general guidelines.

[00:03:45] And they call them values and expectations for what the policy should look like.

[00:03:51] But essentially, otherwise, leaving the police alone to figure out their own policy.

[00:03:55] Sandeep Kashuk, Seattle continues to have cultural problems with SPD.

[00:03:59] I mean, they're talking about ending the consent decree here.

[00:04:03] But do we really want to give SPD crowd control tools like these blast balls that risk injuring people?

[00:04:11] Or do you think there should be greater limits?

[00:04:13] Where do you come down?

[00:04:14] Well, first of all, whether we like it or not, I think it's clear from the judge overseeing the consent decree that SPD has to have some ability to use these kind of less lethal weapons.

[00:04:28] Right. The previous counsel in 2020 passed initially passed a ban on the use of these weapons.

[00:04:35] And Judge Robart, the judge, the federal judge in Seattle overseeing the consent decree, said, no, you can't do that.

[00:04:43] That goes too far.

[00:04:44] And so they passed a second law that removed the ban but put restrictions on them.

[00:04:51] And then what's happening now is an effort in part to align the rules in Seattle with state law.

[00:04:59] Right.

[00:05:00] So it's legislation being proposed by the mayor coming down to the council to.

[00:05:04] So part of this is this has to happen to kind of bring the city into compliance with the judicial rulings and with with superseding state law.

[00:05:14] Right.

[00:05:15] So that's part of it.

[00:05:15] But to your question about whether we should trust SPD with this, it's going to come down to a question of who's in charge of SPD.

[00:05:22] Right. So I think we're about to hear who the mayor has selected to be the next SPD chief to replace the interim, Sue Rahr, who I think we've all talked about in the past and agreed is a really talented chief with a strong reformer credentials.

[00:05:38] But she's going away.

[00:05:39] We're going to have a new chief.

[00:05:40] We don't know who that is.

[00:05:41] And ultimately, the decisions about when and how to deploy these weapons are really at the discretion to a large extent of the chief.

[00:05:50] Right. The criticism in 2020 was that Carmen Best, the previous chief, was too indiscriminate in allowing officers to use these weapons against crowds and that it led to indiscriminate use of tear gas and things like that.

[00:06:02] Erica, I don't quite understand why the next chief is the determining factor here.

[00:06:06] Well, I mean, the next chief is not really the determining factor.

[00:06:10] The determining factor is going to be, you know, who oversees the creation of these new policies and, you know, and who oversees sort of training people on crowd control.

[00:06:20] I mean, there's just SPD is a giant department.

[00:06:22] And I don't think that, you know, either Adrian Diaz nor Carmen Best were solely responsible for SPD's crowd control policies.

[00:06:30] I mean, if anything, it's I don't know, Brian Maxey, their chief operating officer.

[00:06:34] I just want to I just want to clarify one thing Sandeep said about coming into compliance with state law.

[00:06:39] That's just to do with tear gas.

[00:06:42] Essentially, the city has to comply with state law that says that the mayor needs to approve the use of tear gas and no one else.

[00:06:49] So the city wasn't compliant now and this law would bring them into compliance.

[00:06:54] I mean, you know, I think that releasing SPD from some of these restrictions is risky.

[00:07:02] We haven't seen them have to deal with a situation like 2020 since 2020.

[00:07:08] There haven't been like really large mass protests in that same way.

[00:07:12] So I think we actually don't know how they're going to react with new training.

[00:07:16] You know, the new policy on blast balls basically says that people are so that cops are supposed to throw them away from people whenever feasible.

[00:07:26] But in practice, that has never been the case.

[00:07:29] And I talked to Lisa Dugard with Purpose Dignity Action, who was on the original Community Police Commission, you know, who said the problem is that this is just it's never worked.

[00:07:40] They say that they'll have policies on blast balls that don't harm people and they go out and use them and harm people.

[00:07:44] That doesn't mean that it necessarily needs to be legislated, she said, but there definitely needs to be good policy and good training at the very minimum.

[00:07:54] And, you know, we just don't know yet.

[00:07:56] And I think that one thing Kathy Moore is bringing up, City Council Member Kathy Moore in this week's meeting about this is that there's, you know, quite possibly going to be very large mass protests during the Trump administration, you know, especially if he comes in and starts trying to, you know, round people up and deport them to concentration camps.

[00:08:15] And, you know, if there's mass protests, we'll see how the police respond just because they're saying there's a good policy in place now and they've got lots of good training.

[00:08:23] You know, I don't think that in itself is reason to say, OK, well, we're done.

[00:08:28] They've solved the problem on crowd control.

[00:08:30] So I think it still has to be tested.

[00:08:32] Let me add to that, Sandy, before you respond, just by saying Trump has also said he wants to use the National Guard against the enemy within.

[00:08:39] He's also said that he wants to perhaps deploy federal troops to enact these mass deportations.

[00:08:46] So does Seattle want to risk giving Trump the political cover that he needs?

[00:08:50] I mean, the city does need to take seriously crowd control or otherwise don't they perhaps risk having Trump do it for them with the National Guard?

[00:08:59] Well, there's a couple of things to unpack there.

[00:09:01] One, Trump is going to do what he's going to do.

[00:09:03] Right.

[00:09:03] I mean, I don't think like whether Seattle passes this ordinance or some other version of this ordinance is really going to change how the Trump administration meaningfully change how the Trump administration interfaces with Seattle or with Washington state.

[00:09:18] There's already a lot of conversation going on at the state level with incoming governor until, you know, who's finished up his term as Attorney General Bob Ferguson, as well as the Attorney General elect Nick Brown about how they're going to, you know, how to prepare to address what the Trump administration might do.

[00:09:40] And if they do violate Washington state laws or or or or or contravene our values.

[00:09:46] Right. So so some of that stuff is coming.

[00:09:49] I mean, I think Erica's right.

[00:09:52] Like the proof is in the pudding.

[00:09:53] We're going to have to wait and see how it all plays out.

[00:09:56] I will say I think there's, as Judge Robart said, a strong reason to believe that there should be some ability for SPD or other police forces to use these nonlethal munitions when you have protests that do have elements in them where people act.

[00:10:16] You know, you know, violently or destructively and need to be brought under control.

[00:10:22] There is at times cause to use these weapons.

[00:10:25] But it's going to be in the you know, as I was trying to make the point before, it's going to be in the hands of the people making those decisions in the moment during protests.

[00:10:34] If they have the authorization to use these, are they using them in a.

[00:10:39] In a in a reasonable and efficacious way and not overusing them or or using them in a way that's harmful.

[00:10:46] Needless, you know, needlessly so.

[00:10:48] And so so there is going to have to be oversight of this.

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[00:11:36] I mean, yeah, I think that the argument for legislating some of this stuff is precisely, you know, to to control for some of the stuff that Sandeep is talking about.

[00:11:52] I mean, and I you know, I'm not I'm not saying, you know, one way or the other is better.

[00:11:58] But when you have legislation and law, the city council and the mayor have and particularly the city council have more of a say in, you know, in sort of the way that the Seattle Police Department conducts itself.

[00:12:10] The city council is saying we want to take ourselves out of that process and hand all the power over to SPD and the mayor, which I think is in keeping with, you know, what we talked about before.

[00:12:20] There's sort of general deference to whatever the mayor wants to do.

[00:12:24] And so by saying we're not going to legislate on this stuff anymore, I mean, they are saying, you know, we are, you know, giving up responsibility on this issue to SPD, which is, you know, in the mayor's line of command.

[00:12:39] And we're not going to have anything to do with it anymore.

[00:12:41] And I think that's a big thing to give up.

[00:12:43] And I think that it has to be taken really seriously when the evidence we've seen so far is that SPD does not know how to conduct itself in these situations.

[00:12:53] Now, they are saying, you know, we have had some protests, obviously, since 2020, including some Palestine protests recently.

[00:13:00] And this hasn't happened.

[00:13:02] And they've explained why they say it hasn't happened.

[00:13:04] You know, they just they use different tactics.

[00:13:06] They don't show up with overwhelming force.

[00:13:08] They, you know, insinuate themselves in the crowd in a more subtle way.

[00:13:12] You know, maybe.

[00:13:13] And if so, that's good.

[00:13:14] I mean, you know, police are going to be at protests in the least sort of harmful and, you know, scary way they can present themselves.

[00:13:23] I think the fewer problems are going to happen.

[00:13:25] But but as I said, I mean, it just hasn't been tested on a mass scale yet.

[00:13:29] And the city council is about to kind of give up the farm in terms of their ability to to to tell the police department what to do on this stuff.

[00:13:37] Well, they obviously always have the prerogative right to revisit this if, you know, these this law gets passed and then there's, you know, huge mass protests that are peaceful.

[00:13:49] But SPD overreacts and indiscriminately uses these weapons and causes harm with them.

[00:13:54] Obviously, the council could come back and modify this law at their discretion.

[00:13:58] So, you know, I mean, I think the argument was that that there was a kind of knee jerk reaction in 2020 initially to sort of ban the use of these things outright and that the council was being too prescriptive back then or trying to be too prescriptive.

[00:14:12] So we'll see.

[00:14:14] In looking at the debate among council members, it seems like you have some council members say Rob Saka just wanting to bend over backwards to basically say we should let the police do whatever they want.

[00:14:24] And people like Kathy Moore suggesting a little bit more caution and oversight.

[00:14:29] It sounds like both of you might kind of agree more with Kathy Moore on that.

[00:14:33] I don't know if there's any kind of consensus here, but can I just say something about Rob Saka's comments?

[00:14:41] Please do.

[00:14:42] So what he said was basically, you know, we should not be in the business of legislating this.

[00:14:46] And also he added, you know, a question nobody had asked, which is that, you know, he thinks that the city council shouldn't be in the business of determining, you know, which technologies SPD can use under the surveillance ordinance.

[00:15:00] And, you know, I mean, that ordinance is there because we in the city of Seattle, I think, believe in, you know, in privacy to some to a greater or lesser extent.

[00:15:11] But, you know, we legislatively have decided that privacy is important and that we want to have a review of surveillance technologies.

[00:15:19] And Saka said, you know, I don't think this is our business.

[00:15:21] I think police should not have to go through all these hoops and just should just be able to institute some of these technologies without any review.

[00:15:29] And I just I found that comment, I mean, really, really telling.

[00:15:33] I mean, that goes beyond bending over backwards.

[00:15:35] That's just saying, you know, how how dare we try to interfere in any way and protect citizens privacy?

[00:15:41] So I don't know.

[00:15:43] I that that comment really jumped out at me when he made it, because I think it is the extreme end of let's not interfere with what police want to do in any way.

[00:15:51] Yeah. And answer your question, David.

[00:15:52] I mean, you know, I do think I think when it comes to all forms of policing, a certain amount of oversight and civilian oversight from leadership is it is and very much should be part of the process.

[00:16:07] Right. And like we were Eric, I was just talking about with the use of tear gas.

[00:16:12] State law requires that that has to be authorized directly by the mayor.

[00:16:15] Right. That is a oversight mechanism built into state law to ensure that, you know, it's not just left to the discretion of law enforcement about when and where they, you know, use tear gas in particular.

[00:16:31] So. So, yeah, I mean, it's it's a balancing act here.

[00:16:35] We got to be able to have a police force that can police effectively and that isn't completely hamstrung or or handcuffed.

[00:16:43] But we also have to have a police force that has the leadership to make the right decisions about when and where to use these kinds of while they're nonlethal.

[00:16:53] Well, they are weapons and they can cause a lot of harm.

[00:16:57] And and we've got to have, you know, civilian oversight over that leadership, too.

[00:17:02] I mean, I think, you know, just observing this for a while, I do not really see the use case for blast balls in a crowd.

[00:17:10] And I don't think it is would necessarily be handcuffing the police.

[00:17:15] I mean, I don't think we've ever come close to handcuffing the police or not letting them do their jobs or anything that, you know, all the right wing bloggers say we have done.

[00:17:24] But I but I you know, but in the case of blast balls, maybe we should put some handcuffs on that particular one, because, you know, it is just the case that, you know, SPD has not shown an ability, nor do I think they can, because I think they're kind of indiscriminate weapons to use those, you know, against one person in a crowd.

[00:17:44] Or, you know, they talked about sort of bouncing them harmlessly away from the crowd and having them, you know, make make some noise and kind of startle everybody.

[00:17:53] But that's just not what happens with them.

[00:17:55] And there was a report from the city's Office for Civil Rights that was distributed this week that included a lot of photos of people who have been harmed by blast balls, you know, lost eyes, lost, you know, had brain injuries.

[00:18:09] And, you know, I think that's I think that's pretty serious.

[00:18:11] Of course, Rob Saka kind of dismissed that by saying, well, these seem to be from all over the world.

[00:18:15] So what's the problem?

[00:18:17] But, you know, I think there is a problem with with certain kinds of weapons.

[00:18:22] And tear gas is obviously another one.

[00:18:24] You know, the reason that we have those restrictions is because it is indiscriminate and it can drift into people's houses and, you know, linger for days.

[00:18:32] Yeah, I mean, I mean, also in context, I mean, protests are dangerous.

[00:18:36] I mean, the other thing Kathy Moore seems to be pointing out here is that she's worried about agitation from white supremacists.

[00:18:42] She's worried about agitation from anarchists.

[00:18:45] I mean, you know, these are dangerous events sometimes.

[00:18:49] You know, we want civilian oversight.

[00:18:52] But isn't it right to say that the cops are sometimes put in really difficult situations?

[00:18:57] Like, I don't I don't know enough about all of the nonlethal weaponry available to them, Erica, beyond these blast balls or like, you know, you know what I mean?

[00:19:06] Like, but sometimes I feel like, you know, my own friends on the left will, you know, just kind of like not have any sympathy whatsoever for the cops in these situations.

[00:19:14] And I sort of feel like, man, it would it would suck if you chose that as your, you know, your career in your life because that was what was the best path available to you.

[00:19:24] And then you find yourself in some of these protests.

[00:19:26] And it's just it can be a pretty scary, shitty situation to be a cop in those situations, too.

[00:19:31] I don't want to, you know, show too much empathy for cops here.

[00:19:34] Don't get me wrong.

[00:19:35] You know, but but but but I got to say that on the other hand, like, yeah.

[00:19:39] Yeah, I mean, one of the examples in this civil rights memo was video of Jesse Higopian, a local teacher and activist who was just walking through a protest, talking to somebody on the phone.

[00:19:54] And a cop just pointed a pepper spray canister into his face and emptied it.

[00:19:58] And that happened to me.

[00:20:00] I've talked before about this.

[00:20:01] I was literally at a May Day protest, taking photos as a journalist and a cop pepper sprayed me, you know, very violently in the face, in my eyes, nose and mouth.

[00:20:13] And then, you know, I was shoved up the street with a bike.

[00:20:16] Now, they don't use that particular method anymore because it caused, you know, a lot of harm and damage.

[00:20:21] But, I mean, you know, I'm sure both of you, you know, know or secondhand know some people who have been at events and or been bystanders and had shitty things like that happen to them.

[00:20:32] And that does so distrust in the idea that cops are going to be, you know, gentle and kind and discriminating when they decide, you know, who to target with these weapons because I've been targeted with it.

[00:20:44] It sucked.

[00:20:45] I mean, I couldn't.

[00:20:45] I'll just say, in my experience, wanting to be a nonviolent protester and somebody who thinks nonviolence would be a better strategy for most things in the world.

[00:20:53] Sue me.

[00:20:54] But politically, I think it's the best strategy no matter what.

[00:20:57] Hippie.

[00:20:57] Hippie.

[00:20:57] I've been in situations.

[00:20:59] Yeah, whatever.

[00:21:00] You know, we shall overcome, Sandeep.

[00:21:01] But I've been in situations where I felt like protesters were putting my life at risk by trying to provoke the cops.

[00:21:07] And we in the media don't talk enough about that because I guess we're friends with the people on the left more likely.

[00:21:13] And so we're not willing to kind of call out the protesters when they're doing that enough.

[00:21:17] We're going to cherry pick and say, well, the only anecdotes we want to bring up are the times where cops are fucking totally out of line.

[00:21:24] Well, I'm just saying I was casually doing my job as a reporter.

[00:21:28] No, 100%.

[00:21:29] And I got attacked.

[00:21:30] 100%.

[00:21:30] And I got attacked.

[00:21:30] Yes, that is an anecdote.

[00:21:32] Right, right.

[00:21:32] But in the interest.

[00:21:32] It's my anecdote that happened to me as opposed to.

[00:21:35] And it's real.

[00:21:35] And I'm not discounting it, but I'm saying on the other side, I've been around.

[00:21:41] I've been at protests where I felt a lot more afraid of what the protesters were doing.

[00:21:47] You know, it's like at some point we need to have crowd control in a society.

[00:21:52] And I completely think there ought to be tons of civilian oversight.

[00:21:55] I just wanted to sort of raise the fact that, like, you know, it's true that the cops are sometimes put in a tough situation.

[00:22:00] That's all I was going to say.

[00:22:01] And I think that's clearly true.

[00:22:04] Look, I think there was a very facile narrative in the midst of the big protests of 2020 that this was like some very simplistic story of jackbooted,

[00:22:14] thug cops, like, you know, overreacting and beating up peaceful protesters.

[00:22:19] There was some certainly a lot of bad behavior by SPD during those protests.

[00:22:24] There's no question about that.

[00:22:25] There were something like 12,000 complaints that were filed.

[00:22:29] Many of them have been sustained.

[00:22:31] And upheld.

[00:22:32] There were certainly some really high profile incidents of truly bad behavior by cops.

[00:22:36] Erica, the thing that happened to you.

[00:22:38] I mean, other people can cite examples.

[00:22:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

[00:22:42] Those are all glaring examples of bad behavior by SPD.

[00:22:47] But David, I agree with your point.

[00:22:49] Like during that period, there were anarchists in those crowds that were not only yelling and trying to provoke the cops into overreacting and acting badly,

[00:22:58] but there were actually things that those people were throwing like, you know, fireworks.

[00:23:04] There was an attempt to actually try to burn down the East Precinct at one point by some of these folks.

[00:23:10] So there hasn't bad behavior on that side.

[00:23:12] And the answer to it legislatively is exactly what the council, the process that mayor and council are engaged in now,

[00:23:18] which is to figure out how do we allow SPD to be able to police protests effectively,

[00:23:24] but have some guardrails and some constraints so that it doesn't allow them to act indiscriminately or in counterproductive or dangerous ways.

[00:23:35] And again, at the end of the day, you can only legislate so much.

[00:23:38] It's in those chaotic situations on the ground.

[00:23:41] It's going to be the commanders who are making the decisions who are ultimately going to have the biggest sway on whether they police effectively or not.

[00:23:52] One concern we haven't mentioned is that in addition to sort of giving SPD full authority to create its own policy within this set of values and guidelines,

[00:24:03] and the values include things like we believe in free speech,

[00:24:07] the legislation also removes, well, it removes a couple of things.

[00:24:11] It removes a private right of action for people to sue SPD, but it also removes,

[00:24:15] which is troubling if something happens to you and you were planning to sue under that right.

[00:24:22] It also removes requirements that mutual aid agencies that come from outside Seattle to assist SPD follow the same rules as SPD.

[00:24:31] So the police department has argued that it needs these agencies to come in because they're understaffed.

[00:24:37] And so they can't show, you know, enough of a show of force at large events without some other agencies coming in.

[00:24:44] But the problem is, I mean, if those agencies include cops who want to, you know,

[00:24:49] go their own way and practice the way that they practice in, you know,

[00:24:53] Kent or Enumclaw or Bellevue or wherever,

[00:24:55] it is difficult to restrain that.

[00:24:58] SPD says that, you know, that they, everything's going to come down from commanders.

[00:25:03] And there's been some talk of maybe putting those people on some kind of desk duty when they come in to free up cops to actually go out and deal with crowds

[00:25:11] since they are not committed to follow our rules and laws.

[00:25:14] But, you know, that's concerning.

[00:25:16] I mean, to completely take that away instead of just saying they need to follow our laws and SPD policy.

[00:25:23] Well, let's move on, Erica, to another topic that you've been following this week.

[00:25:28] Like protests, not protests.

[00:25:30] I shouldn't say that.

[00:25:31] A petition, though, to try to stop what is allegedly a strip club coming to Ballard Ave.

[00:25:39] The heart of Ballard Ave.

[00:25:40] Well, it's not the heart of Ballard Ave.

[00:25:42] The edge of Ballard Ave.

[00:25:43] Near Bad Alberts that way.

[00:25:46] But tell us what is, what's being proposed and what's being protested.

[00:25:50] Oh, man, this might be an example, depending on when this podcast comes out, of the podcast getting ahead of my ability to finish writing about things.

[00:25:57] So I've done the reporting on this.

[00:25:59] I'll just share what I've found out.

[00:26:01] So there is a bar called Rome Bar at the end of Ballard Ave.

[00:26:06] I'm going to say it's near the Walrus and the Carpenter because that's more, you know, that's more my la-di-da speed.

[00:26:14] Bad Alberts.

[00:26:15] What's that?

[00:26:16] Fancy the Walrus and the Carpenter.

[00:26:17] No, I mean, let's be real.

[00:26:19] I've been there once.

[00:26:20] But...

[00:26:21] Oh, my God, it's so good, though.

[00:26:23] I don't want to give anybody an advertisement, but oh, my God, it's so good.

[00:26:25] But anyway, so it's down on that end of Ballard Avenue, kind of in the more industrial area.

[00:26:31] And they want to open what they call an adult cabaret upstairs.

[00:26:35] I spoke with the owner and she told me that, you know, it's her and her wife that own the place.

[00:26:41] And they want to, you know, sort of create like a fun adult.

[00:26:45] I mean, I'm going to say burlesque.

[00:26:47] I don't know if that's exactly what it is, but it's kind of what it sounds like.

[00:26:50] And, you know, but it's going to be an adult cabaret under the city's cabaret license.

[00:26:56] So the reason this is happening now is because the state changed the law so that strip clubs can have liquor,

[00:27:03] which, you know, makes those kind of venues more viable financially.

[00:27:08] And there's been a petition.

[00:27:10] There's an online petition, David, that you sent to me, if that's okay for me to say.

[00:27:15] So you're my source on this, originally.

[00:27:18] Yeah.

[00:27:19] The instigator.

[00:27:20] Yeah.

[00:27:21] And all you NIMBYs on Nextdoor, it's David's fault.

[00:27:25] Well, you know what?

[00:27:26] You know, it's funny, though.

[00:27:27] The petition only has about 185 signatures.

[00:27:31] And it was started by the owner of the building where Filson is on Ballard Avenue.

[00:27:36] And yeah.

[00:27:37] Yeah.

[00:27:38] It's her petition.

[00:27:40] And so.

[00:27:41] But not by Filson.

[00:27:42] It's the building.

[00:27:43] The building owner.

[00:27:44] Yes.

[00:27:44] Yeah.

[00:27:44] Let's be clear here.

[00:27:45] Yeah.

[00:27:45] Yeah.

[00:27:46] Yeah.

[00:27:46] So anyway, it's a petition saying essentially, and this is like, this is where I start to love

[00:27:52] this story because it gets in zoning weeds.

[00:27:55] It's basically that there's a law about where strip clubs can go, you know, or adult cabarets,

[00:28:00] whatever, burlesque clubs.

[00:28:01] And one of the rules is it can't be within a certain distance of community centers and

[00:28:06] parks and places that, you know, children might be essentially.

[00:28:09] They're saying that there's a street in nearby that they are claiming constitutes a park,

[00:28:14] the opponents of this bar.

[00:28:16] And I went and looked at it and it's, it is sort of at the end of a part of big parking

[00:28:22] lot.

[00:28:23] And it's like a little strip of sort of scrubby shrubs with a bench on one end that overlooks

[00:28:30] a place where some, you know, some yachts and sailboats are parked.

[00:28:33] It is definitely not a park.

[00:28:35] And the city agrees and they have denied that, that, that complaint and are planning to issue

[00:28:41] the permit as far as I can tell, unless they come up with another novel reason to oppose

[00:28:47] this, this development.

[00:28:48] To me, to me, the funniest part of it was the petition says it's going to deter people

[00:28:52] from visiting downtown Ballard.

[00:28:55] And I was like, oh, okay.

[00:28:58] And what about people who are offended by flannel?

[00:29:01] I mean, you know, we need a little more sleaze in downtown Ballard, if you ask me.

[00:29:06] Right.

[00:29:06] Yeah.

[00:29:06] I'm pro sleaze.

[00:29:08] And, and, you know, I mean, it doesn't sound sleazy though.

[00:29:12] No, it's not.

[00:29:12] That's the thing.

[00:29:13] It actually sounds kind of weirdly wholesome.

[00:29:15] Like, yeah, actually I would like a sleazier strip club to go to Ballard.

[00:29:20] Right.

[00:29:20] So, you know, when can we do that?

[00:29:24] Look, I, this feels to me like the dying gasp of like the kind of old Seattle, the much

[00:29:31] more prudish old Seattle.

[00:29:32] Like when I moved to Seattle in 2002, you still couldn't buy liquor on Sundays.

[00:29:37] Right.

[00:29:37] I remember when the council passed the four foot rule saying like the patrons at strip

[00:29:42] clubs had to stay at least four feet away from the strippers.

[00:29:46] And, and, you know, they had the, the annual strip club moratorium on opening new strip clubs

[00:29:53] that went on annually for 17 years in a row until they got sued and had to back off on that.

[00:29:59] Right.

[00:29:59] Like, so there was this whole different era and different world of this kind of prudish

[00:30:08] nimbyish opposition.

[00:30:09] But this is like 20 years ago plus, right?

[00:30:13] Right.

[00:30:13] And a lot of that stuff.

[00:30:14] The actual last gasp.

[00:30:16] But Derek, it's like 185 people have signed this petition.

[00:30:19] That's not exactly that.

[00:30:22] I doubt most of the people who live in Ballard are up in arms.

[00:30:26] In fact, I'm sure most of the people who live in Ballard don't give a rat's ass or think

[00:30:32] this is perfectly fine.

[00:30:33] Can I, can I say one other funny little thing that I found out when I was looking at this?

[00:30:37] Um, the, uh, you know, the original legislation, which was sponsored by Peter Steinbrook, um,

[00:30:43] to, uh, to basically allow strip clubs would put all these, you know, restrictions on where

[00:30:48] they could be.

[00:30:48] Um, it said that the reason that strip clubs need to be kept away from places where children

[00:30:54] congregate is because, uh, people, uh, because alcohol was banned in strip clubs.

[00:30:58] And so people would be standing around drinking outside, which would be a bad influence on,

[00:31:02] you know, I guess the children who are hanging around in industrial downtown Ballard, for example.

[00:31:07] Um, but you know, so, so, so now that alcohol is allowed the entire justification for even

[00:31:14] having those restrictions in the first place is gone.

[00:31:16] Um, so, uh, you know, I think maybe it's time to revisit those restrictions and, uh, you know,

[00:31:21] I doubt that anybody on the council is going to take up this mantle, but I don't know, maybe,

[00:31:25] uh, but Rob Saka, uh, are you in, you know, you do some pretty weird stuff.

[00:31:30] Um, I, I just, you know, I think that the, that the restrictions that we have on,

[00:31:34] on strip clubs, adult cabarets, burlesque places, whatever, um, need to go, uh, it's time.

[00:31:40] Let's revisit them and, uh, let's, uh, bring some fun sleaze back to Seattle.

[00:31:45] Well, I will, I will point out that the city, as a kind of throwback to this stuff,

[00:31:50] when the city licenses businesses like this, they do it under, I think what's called Title VI,

[00:31:55] right? Normal businesses gets licensed under Title VI. Title VI are for businesses like

[00:32:00] strip clubs or like weed stores, right? Weed stores are Title VI and they're more restricted

[00:32:06] about where you can put these businesses and they're, these buffer zones and you can't be

[00:32:10] near a park or a school or a playground or whatever, you know? And, and some of these, um,

[00:32:16] restrictions continue to be really, really restricted. It was when we first legalized

[00:32:21] and passed the law legalizing and the, and allowing for the siting of marijuana businesses,

[00:32:27] there weren't that many places where you could open those businesses in the city. The, the laws

[00:32:31] were, were, and the buffers are really extensive and quite restrictive. And maybe there is some cause

[00:32:37] to revisit some of that because a lot of it is, is pretty, um, weird. It's based on archaic values.

[00:32:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I agree with Eric. Yeah, it is. I actually, and I should say here,

[00:32:52] I mean, I actually was involved, I worked for the marijuana retailers when we negotiated

[00:32:56] the law, I think it was in 2015 or 2016 that, that, uh, restricted the siting of,

[00:33:02] of marijuana businesses. Right. And, and, um, that the council back then was,

[00:33:10] was much more well focused on, on, yeah, these kinds of restrictive things.

[00:33:14] And Sandeep, you wanted to revisit something that came up last week on one of our scintillating

[00:33:20] episodes of Seattle Nice.

[00:33:22] More contentious for sure. I feel like we've kind of done the, we've sort of done the, a 180

[00:33:28] in this episode. We're all being, we're actually being not just Seattle Nice, but nice to each

[00:33:33] other. And actually.

[00:33:34] Let's change that.

[00:33:35] On most things. Last week was a much more contentious episode, as we will all recall,

[00:33:40] about, uh, uh, about Tammy Morales's decision.

[00:33:44] To be a toxic episode about toxicity.

[00:33:46] Yeah, it was a toxic episode about the toxicity of this council where Eric and I, I think very

[00:33:52] strongly disagree about whether there's something uniquely bad and toxic about this council versus

[00:33:57] the previous council. I obviously hold the, the latter view that there is a plenty of toxicity

[00:34:02] on the last council directed, um, at people like Sarah Nelson. But in the course of making that

[00:34:07] argument, I name check Teresa Mosqueda and was talking about the fact that there were some

[00:34:13] clearly exchanges on the dais at times between Teresa and, and, um, uh, Sarah Nelson, for example,

[00:34:21] um, uh, that were pretty heated or snippy. And that is true, but it's also true. And I talked to

[00:34:27] Teresa today. She called me about it. We had a conversation and it was off the record, so I won't

[00:34:31] go into it, but it's also is true that Teresa was one of the council members on the previous council

[00:34:37] that even if you disagreed with her, she disagreed with her, with you, you could have a civil and

[00:34:45] substantive conversation with, right. And I would not say that about all of her colleagues on that

[00:34:50] previous council. So I, uh, so I didn't mean to imply that Teresa was the problem on the last

[00:34:56] council or the big instigator of the negativity and the toxicity of that council. I actually think

[00:35:03] she was one of the, Teresa and I disagree on any number of policy issues, but I, I, I generally

[00:35:12] respect her approach to governance and her willingness to engage in dialogue. And just to give

[00:35:17] an example of that, um, because I thought this conversation might end up being a little more

[00:35:21] contentious. I looked up, uh, some of my coverage and, and sort of, uh, yes, ending what you said,

[00:35:28] Sandy. I mean, there's an example. Um, I, I remembered about the, uh, the budget last year

[00:35:34] where Sarah Nelson was sort of, you know, who really wants to invest city money in, um, in traditional

[00:35:40] for residential or outpatient treatment. Um, she was proposing to take a bunch of money out of the opioid

[00:35:48] settlement that was going to go to, and did go to harm reduction, um, and put it into abstinence-based

[00:35:54] treatment. And, you know, the, the other members of the council, including Lisa Herbold were like,

[00:35:59] Hey, you know, that doesn't make any sense. It's already dedicated. We don't have any control over

[00:36:03] that. Even if we did decide that we were going to go a different direction and, and that got pretty

[00:36:08] contentious. I mean, including with Teresa, but what ended up happening behind the scenes is that

[00:36:12] they worked out a deal where Sarah Nelson essentially dropped her opposition to the harm

[00:36:17] reduction stuff and Mosqueda found $300,000 in the budget to fund treatment. So I think that's an

[00:36:24] example of what you're talking about, Sandy. Yeah, that is a good example. Yay. We actually had a,

[00:36:29] a, a Seattle nice episode of Seattle nice. Oh, what a nice palette cleanser. All right. That's it for

[00:36:37] another edition of Seattle nice. The nicest edition of Seattle nice. Um, she's Eric C. Barnett. He's

[00:36:44] Sandeep Kashuk. I'm David Hyde. Our editor is Quinn Waller and a shout out to Ian Eisenberg.

[00:36:50] Uncle Ike. Yeah. Uncle Ike, our donor, you know, our Patrion, our patron, our patron,

[00:36:57] uh, and I know that he wants to encourage others to, to join him in advertising on Seattle nice. So

[00:37:05] I it's going well, I think for him. And I know Erica, huge fan, right? Right. Right now,

[00:37:10] from our perspective, he's the owns the only weed store in Seattle and everybody should go to Seattle

[00:37:14] to, uh, to, uh, yeah, I was saying Logan Bowers, uh, you know, recently, uh, left city employment

[00:37:21] for joy Hollingsworth, but owns, uh, a weed store that I will not, uh, mentioned by name. I refuse to

[00:37:27] until he sponsors Seattle nice. So, uh, you know, there's an opportunity for you, uh, Logan or anybody

[00:37:34] else who, uh, does or does not own a weed store wants to be a sponsor and listeners, you know, if you

[00:37:40] feel seen, you just got to own it. Sorry. We got, we got a corner of the weed advertising market in

[00:37:46] Seattle. I think that's the weed and burlesque, uh, burlesque strip club slash, uh, some strip club

[00:37:52] ads. Where are the bar owners? I mean, come on. People step up here. We're defending the right of

[00:37:59] stripping and ballard. All right. Thank you everybody so much for listening.